01-03-2005 18:33									#61
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Grigor - could you explain why Rabbit's HG is in the wrong city? Are you thinking of using it to build up the SSC?

	01-03-2005 19:27									#62
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Grigor -- Your point about cities on silk is spot-on. I have 2 or 3 of them in my save IIRC, and the only one I like is the one in the NW.

Why is HG in a wrong city? I don't think of there being a "right" city for WoWs whose effects are civ-wide. I feel there may be something basic eluding me. Please define.

	02-03-2005 05:14									#63
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I vote for atomant's save

	02-03-2005 07:08									#64
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Yes, my thought was that HG has value either in a SSC, a super Trade city, or to build up a big city in a representative government. Whatever city the HG is in would receive most of the foreign trade. Persepolis has such weak production that its ability to function as a trade generator is compromised, but if all SSC builds are designed to be rushbuilt, then I stand corrcted.

	02-03-2005 08:37									#65
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Grigor... I thought I understood for a brief moment, but now it's gone. HG provides extra happiness to the host city, right? Which helps it celebrate and generate more arrows, I guess. But why does the SSC/STC city need high production? Isn't van re-homing allowed, so that the vans could be produced anywhere? Or is that inefficient? ... Sorry - I am pretty ignorant about SSC's... I have almost never used them.

I vote for a save that has become interesting to me - Rabbit's.

	02-03-2005 10:09									#66
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- oh - sorry - I never use van homing.

	02-03-2005 11:26									#67
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Ant: Voted for JR
Grigor: Voted for Peaster
LAF: Voted for Ant

unless I missed them, am waiting for the rabbit's and Peaster's vote...

Van homing is allowed....

	02-03-2005 18:08									#68
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Weird. I was all ready to resign myself to the masters of early conquest, so I was (am) pretty shocked to get Peaster's vote. Apparently he thinks my missteps can be saved.

Peaster, any strategic thoughts you have on the next 20 turns would be of great interest to me.

Guess I'll abstain on the vote.

	02-03-2005 19:06									#69
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Well, each save has good features, and we could conquer our vile inhuman enemies from any of them. I thought we might enjoy starting from your save, considering LaFayette's suggestion, Atomant's vote,
and our analysis.

Nobody has to follow the Grigor/LF/P plan, of course. But if you do, I suggest focusing on the goals I already mentioned: getting mm, MPE, LH, more ports, and sending out loaded boats. With HG, it makes sense to build settlers, roads and cities, while we wait for the tech. If there are any huts left, let's pop them, hoping for good tech or nomads. It would be nice to hear everyone else's ideas, too.

BTW - I plan to ignore the info from my MPE as much as possible. I don't think we have a rule on this, but we are trying to simulate a real game, aren't we?

	02-03-2005 22:15									#70
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Atomant's call, but I think that's the idea.

Based on the feedback received here, I agree that massive settler-building should be next, whilst keeping track of any nefarious AI WoW-building.

In 20 turns, we should be able to manage MM, plus plenty of new cities and roads. At that point, we can build boats and MPE. I still like the idea of a 2nd-continent trade city as well.

	02-03-2005 22:57									#71
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OK, I am happy wih Jrabbit's save.

I note that we have the option to switch his HG to MPE or Colossus. We can compare in 20 turns.

	02-03-2005 23:04									#72
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That's actually a very interesting option.

	03-03-2005 03:50									#73
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The rabbits hops out in front then based on Peasters and Grigor's comments. Monday. midday (GMT) for the next 20 turns.

	03-03-2005 05:20									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Grigor I note that we have the option to switch his HG to MPE or Colossus. We can compare in 20 turns.

Thanks, Grigor ! Somehow, I missed this. Switching would solve a lot of problems, IMO, since Rabbit's save needs MPE sooner than HG. Choosing MPE without mapmaking is a gamble, since we may get but one chance at trading maps, but maybe one of the AI's has mm, and will trade. If this works out well, Rabbit's save suddenly looks very promising !

It would be interesting to compare the results of different WoW choices. Are there any volunteers for HG or Col ? I will probably switch to MPE.

	03-03-2005 07:58									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster Thanks, Grigor ! Somehow, I missed this. Switching would solve a lot of problems, IMO, since Rabbit's save needs MPE sooner than HG. Choosing MPE without mapmaking is a gamble, since we may get but one chance at trading maps, but maybe one of the AI's has mm, and will trade. If this works out well, Rabbit's save suddenly looks very promising ! It would be interesting to compare the results of different WoW choices. Are there any volunteers for HG or Col ? I will probably switch to MPE.

One thing I have noticed is that the more you trade with the AI (as in give gifts) the more likely they are to trade maps. Happy hunting gentlemen. I think these 20 turns will lead to two divergent strategies. Make them count.

	03-03-2005 09:01									#76
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It's critical that MM be obtained through MPE, preferably the 1st civ you trade with.
IIRC the AI won't trade maps without this tech in both hands.

I will stick to the HG thing and soldier on from there.

	03-03-2005 09:15									#77
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quote: Originally posted by atomant One thing I have noticed is that the more you trade with the AI (as in give gifts) the more likely they are to trade maps.

Right! They will not trade maps unless both sides have MM, and they are at least "cordial". You get better odds with enthusiastic and 100% odds with worshipful.

You can raise attitude through tech gifts. Or by trading tech (if they are "receptive" or better). You can give gold instead - maybe a good idea later in this game - and sometimes they will give it right back to you as tribute. I assume you have to dominate them on their continent, as usual, to get this kind of payback.

	03-03-2005 10:19									#78
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Goals for this turn set were to steer techs towards three main discoveries: 1) Monotheism (for that churchy thing with the painting on the roof and crucs), Invention (for the workshop) and economics for ASTCo. Obviously, feudalism would be a nice support for the workshop, but not essential. Also, any caravans built are ordered to converge on Perispolis, it is a wonderful city afterall. I also stayed away from MPE, as I want to maintain a tech (and unit) advantage until we are dominant.

And the turns are:

1000BC: Change workers and production in some cities
975BC: Build HG, lots of happy faces and we love the king day in PERISPOLIS. BACTRA builds settlers, changes to caravan
950BC: ANTIOCH builds barracks, changes to caravan
925BC: SIDON builds settlers, changes to caravan. ERGILI builds warrior, changes to settlers.
900BC: Barbarians near TYRE
875BC: SAMARIA builds barracks, changes to caravan. DURISH KABHIR founded
850BC: GORDIUM builds settlers, changes to caravan. SUSA builds caravan, changes to settlers. Warrior pops hut, unveiling advanced tribe of GHULAMAN. Second Warrior pops hut, unveiling advanced tribe of ZOHAK. Two warriors attack barbarian horseman near TYRE. Lose one warrior, but kill horseman.
825BC: Settlers from SAMARIA found city of ISHTAKR .
800BC: Mysticism discovered. Start researching Literacy due to bad grammar and the fact that it is essential for my three strategic techs. SSC builds settlers, changes to caravan.
775BC: Kingdom slept through year due to bad Olympic games.
750BC: Barbarian chariots appear near ERGILI. Use two warriors from ERGILI to damage one chariot and destroy the other.
725BC: Barbarian chariot suffers blowout on approach to ERGILI. ZOHAK changes production after building two warriors to building settlers. GHULAMAN also changes after building warriors to building settlers. Apparently we are the second most advanced civilization.
700BC: Barbarian leader from attack on TYRE captured by warrior from nearby city, netting us 150 bucks. City of JINJAN also founded.
675BC: TYRE builds caravan, changes to settlers. ANTIOCH builds settlers, changes to caravan. SUSA builds caravan, changes to settlers. HAMADAN build phalanx and starts settlers.
650BC: PERISPOLIS builds settlers, changes to caravan. Our civilization population now totals over 400,000 harder souls.
625BC: ERGILI builds settlers, changes to caravan. DK builds second warrior, changes to settlers.
600BC: Ele pops hut and we get *Feudalism* . We discover Literacy, and start on Philispohy. ISHTAKR builds warriors, changes to settlers.
575BC: BACTRA builds caravan, changes to settlers.
550BC: JINJAN has civil disorder, due to upgrade from warriors to pikeman. Control disorder by creating Elvi. SAMARIA builds caravan, changes to settlers. SSC builds caravan, changes to settlers.
525BC: Ele pops hut, we discover Horseback Riding.
500BC: SIDON builds caravan, changes to settlers. Ele finds another hut, we get Iron Working. Found city of BORAZJAN. And with one caravan left to move, end the turn.

TURN SUMMARY
No. of Cities founded(inc advanced tribes): 6
No. of Technologies acquired: 5 and halfway to philiosphy. However, will need to spend next turn set discovering specific techs like Polytheism, which is only useful for monotheism.
No. of settlers: 5 active, seven in production
No. of Caravans: 9 in production, 6 active. These vans are dedicated to building wonders, but feel free to do with as you please with them. Basicaly, there are enough available to rush build any wonder presently able of being built.
Cities: 18, with a total target being 22-24. Remaining cities should be built next turn set, filling in blanks between outposts and being placed on other four spot sites.
Unhappiness: 3 unhappy faces. Mono should fix this as will temples in some cities.
Income: 12 per turn, with four being expended in two barracks and two temples.
Science: Discoveries every 11 turns, but this could be bettered by building temples so as Elvi could be eliminated and workers made productive/libs.

I expect far better results from the academy members.

Attachment: aaxe_b500.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	03-03-2005 10:21									#79
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Atomant's call, but I think that's the idea.

Ignore as much as is humanly possible.

	03-03-2005 12:07									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster Right! They will not trade maps unless both sides have MM, and they are at least "cordial". You get better odds with enthusiastic and 100% odds with worshipful.

Are you sure about the need for the AI to have MM? I thought I could remember examples where the AI civ did not have map making but still traded maps. That was with 2.42 which may be different from MGE.

RJM at Sleeper's

	03-03-2005 12:45									#81
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RJM - most of my experience is with MGE. For that, I am pretty sure MM is required for both parties. I have played a little 2.42 lately, and haven't noticed any stark differences (but I wasn't really looking).

A separate correction, though - you can trade tech with an AI that is "neutral" (both MGE and 2.42).

	03-03-2005 23:35									#82
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Trading maps requires MapMaking for both players in all versions I have played (Classic, MGE, and FW).

	04-03-2005 11:12									#83
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Here is my thinking at the start:

Starting with the Bunnyman's save, we have choices. Peaster will do the MPE thing, and will move nicely toward an early expansion. So my choice is HG or Colossus. Hmmmm.

We have certain development things we would like to do: Mine Wine Hill (15 turns), road from Tyre, road around Persepolis. temples and harbors in Persepolis and SSC, 3 trade routes to Persepolis, road from Bactra to Susa, develop Northeastern continent around Ergili, Expand to 4 cities areound Sidon; expand to 4 cities around Antioch. Collect vans for the following wonders: LH, MPE, MC, SunTzu, SoL (30)

When we get Map Making, expand to the other continent near Antioch.

HG plan:
HG will make Persepolis celebrate and allow ICS growth to 22 cities without martial law. The shields we save can go into Caravans. Vans can be delayed for an immediate round of settlers. Roading can be delayed but the Wine needs mining immediately. Persepolis will eventually need both harbor and Temple.

Colossus Plan:
Persepolis gets double shields. (making harbor extra valuable). HG could also go there ASAP for celebration. Persepolis working ocean will pump out 10 beakers/turn, and 20 with HG. Of course, we don't have seafaring yet. On the other hand, we need 198 for Mysticism. The main drawback is that Colossus is not a necessary wonder, so it's an extra 4 vans. There is, however, very little chance it will become obsolete.
We could finish the current 4 vans in nearby cities and do a round of settlers everywhere else. New cities will need martial law - an extra 10 shields per city until HG. We should build HG before we need too much of it.

Colossus sems the unusual choice, so I would like to try it. But we don't have seafaring, so Persepolis growth is stagnant. Too bad.

So I chose HG.

spoiler(highlight to read): 1000 Keep HG in Perspolis. Consider granary in Antioch to speed settler building. Done! Rush temple and switch to Granary. Ergili phalanx discovers wheat. Press Enter 975 Bactra: settlers. Perspolis: HG (8 beakers). Sidon: RB settlers 950* Sidon: Settlers 925 Dariush Kabir founded. (12) 900 Susa: Settlers. Ghulaman founded on NE coast. Hut: Feudalism. I think other civs will get it anyway, so it just allows us to build Sun Tzu. Unfortunately, nothing is building warriors which I can rushbuy this turn. 875 Antioch: Granary 850* Hut: Zohak. (13) Settler starts mining Wine. Bactra-Susa road finished 825 Myst=> IW (273)(no better techs offered) 800 Gordium: Caravan. 775 Samaria: Granary. SSC: caravan. Second settler mines wine. 750* 725 700 We are most Powerful. Hut: Tribe! (14) Wine Mine finishd 675 Ergili: Settlers 650*Pas: silk van Barbs near Hamadan 625 Hamadan, Antioch: Settlers. 600 IW=>Maps 575 Jinjan (15) founded 550* 525 Susa completes Sun Tzu 500 Vikes start Pyramids. Barb chariot immolates on our (now Vet) Phalanx. Persepolis: Temple. Borazjan (16) founded.

new cities: 5
Techs: 3
Wine around SSC mined.
Infrastructure started.
Wonders: HG, Sun Tzu

	04-03-2005 12:15									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster RJM - most of my experience is with MGE. For that, I am pretty sure MM is required for both parties. I have played a little 2.42 lately, and haven't noticed any stark differences (but I wasn't really looking). A separate correction, though - you can trade tech with an AI that is "neutral" (both MGE and 2.42).

quote: Originally posted by Elephant Trading maps requires MapMaking for both players in all versions I have played (Classic, MGE, and FW).

Oh well ... chalk it up as yet another senior moment on my part.

RJM at Sleeper's

	05-03-2005 21:12									#85
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I made the mistake of playing the CFC GOTM for several hours before starting this turnset at 1AM last night. Not sure I was thinking very clearly.

I experimented by switching Antioch from temple to granary, to make it a mother city - for making settlers quickly. Maybe barracks was better. Any RCC on that?

Anyway, choosing MPE worked out well, as we got mm, math, poly, myst + 6 maps. We skipped horses to reduce tech costs. Later this set, we got lit, and astro (from a hut), and seafaring (traded lit for it). We are halfway to phil, and then we're ready for mono, navigation and/or a 70% taxe rate. I like making Magellan's + caravels for such a large map with restarts on. Not sure we have time for more WoWs, but we can think about STWA or MC.

We got MPE and eventually HG (after some rioting) and are about halfway to having 4 vans for LH. We have 12 old + 5 new = 17 cities, plus 5 Settlers.

We have 3 boats and 4 ellies, and can send out 2 flots within 5 turns, probably including settlers for distant colonies. I do not see a safe sea route for a trireme to the Mongol area, but with seafaring we can risk one turn on the open seas (or just wait for LH).

We have improved roads in the homeland, with hopes for moving troops north towards the other civs.
We have a canal city to the inland sea, if needed. The empire is still a bit scattered out, and I don't have a clear plan for getting troops to Russia very soon. But since restarts are on, the "farthest civ first" principle is not so crucial.

I do not plan on trade routes myself, but offer the SSC and Susa as possibilities. I haven't looked at the other saves/logs much yet, but we'll probably have a wide choice this time. Very brief log:

975: MPE gets 4 techs, 6 maps [switch research to lit]
850: hut: 5 barbs SW of Hamadan (no problem since)
825:"Egyptians start Pyramids", hut = Astro.
650: Lit -> Phil, and get seaf from the AI. Have 3 new cities and a few riots.
600: Build HG, nomad builds Ishtar (16).
550: Jinjan (17).
500: Spotted a hut. Making 63 s/t. 2 Flot's soon. Shifting units northwards.

Attachment: p_b500.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	05-03-2005 22:50									#86
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Grigor - we had the same idea about a granary in Antioch!? I guess it's not too crazy then.

G+A saves = many cities on good sites. Weak tech collections, with bad hut luck, without help from MPE. Grigor is making 71s/t (excellent). I wsh I had paid more attention to your mining-wine idea.

IMO, having feudalism + STWA in this game is worse than having neither, because all six AI's will get pikemen
that defend at +50% to compensate for our vet bonus (which we might get from barracks/etc instead). In most EC games, most AI never get pikers - I am not sure if the new rules will change that. But I strongly dislike having feudalism for now.

My cities aren't so great, so I am hoping LF or JR will do better. My save does allow for 2 flotillas departing within 5 turns - a critical event for EC.

	06-03-2005 05:35									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster I experimented by switching Antioch from temple to granary, to make it a mother city - for making settlers quickly. Maybe barracks was better. Any RCC on that?

RCC? I think this turn set will see a wide variety strategies and some interesting debate on which is the best save.

I like the granary idea (up north) but chose not to build it as I figured I could get enough settlers from other sources.

I like the idea of instant upgrades via the workshop as even if we give the requisitie texhs to other civs, they will still have to build the units, whereas we will get them instantly.

Overall, I like all the turnsets presented so far. Each has the own advantages and will make an interst 'playoff' point for the next lot of turns.

However, I will stress that better ball approach still applies.

	06-03-2005 17:33									#88
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Oustanding saves to be posted...

	06-03-2005 18:58									#89
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Yes, everyboldy's save is good.

Peaster - I like where you put Dariush Kabir, Ghulaman, and Zohak. I can put the next three cities there in my save.

- I fear it is wishful thinking to expect that the AI will not get feudalism this game. I note that in your save the Japanese are already researching it! On the other hand, having the first row of shields for as long as possible is an advantage.

- Also, two civs in your save are researching Navigation so we need to be ready with our wonder vans. The AI will build Magellan's if it can.

- the tech path is interesting in Peaster's save - Phil, presumably Mono, Republic, Banking, and hope the AI learns construction for us before we have run out of presents for them. Or we could start with taking Republic with the Philosophy bonus, and hope that an AI learns Banking for us. Once we give the AI republic they will try to run that government and they become both better trading partners and easier to wipe out. Going to Democracy, SoL, and soft Fundy has the overwhelming advantage that we don't actually have Fundamentalism so we cannot give it to the AI.

	06-03-2005 21:30									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Grigor - I fear it is wishful thinking to expect that the AI will not get feudalism this game. I note that in your save the Japanese are already researching it!

Ooomph! That hurts.

But it was a good catch. Well, I am not sure whether to trust my experience from other games, or to consider the Japanese decision an omen of future problems for this game. So, I am less opposed to feudalism, but still would not choose it freely.

BTW - What is "soft Fundy" ? Using SoL to get a Fundy govt ? As far as tech goes, I'd want mono + nav ( + anything we can steal/trade from the AI) but then I'd probably kill research and raise taxes/lux. I'd still predict victory way before 1000AD this way.

I rarely get more tech than this. It is time to conquer! But if you can explain why we should go for more, I am ready to listen and learn! Especially if it will help us before 500AD or so.

BTW - Ant and Rabbit, Do you play the CFC GOTMs? I think you'd like the current one.