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Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 00:38
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New Proof of Human Effect on Climate Change. Tired of ads?

quote:
New proof that man has caused global warming

From Mark Henderson, Science Correspondent, in Washington

The strongest evidence yet that global warming has been triggered by human activity has emerged from a major study of rising temperatures in the world’s oceans.


The present trend of warmer sea temperatures, which have risen by an average of half a degree Celsius (0.9F) over the past 40 years, can be explained only if greenhouse gas emissions are responsible, new research has revealed.


The results are so compelling that they should end controversy about the causes of climate change, one of the scientists who led the study said yesterday.


"The debate about whether there is a global warming signal now is over, at least for rational people," said Tim Barnett, of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla, California. "The models got it right. If a politician stands up and says the uncertainty is too great to believe these models, that is no longer tenable."


In the study, Dr Barnett’s team examined more than seven million observations of temperature, salinity and other variables in the world’s oceans, collected by the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and compared the patterns with those that are predicted by computer models of various potential causes of climate change.


It found that natural variation in the Earth’s climate, or changes in solar activity or volcanic eruptions, which have been suggested as alternative explanations for rising temperatures, could not explain the data collected in the real world. Models based on man-made emissions of greenhouse gases, however, matched the observations almost precisely.


"What absolutely nailed it was the greenhouse model," Dr Barnett told the American Association for the Advancement of Science conference in Washington. Two models, one designed in Britain and one here in the US, got it almost exactly. We were stunned. They did it so well it was almost unbelieveable."


Climate change has affected the seas in different ways in different parts of the world: in the Atlantic, for example, rising temperatures can be observed up to 700 metres below the surface, while in the Pacific the warming is seen only up to 100m down.


Only the greenhouse models replicated the changes that have been observed in practice. "The fact that this has gone on in different ways gives us the chance to figure out who did it," Dr Barnett said.


"All the potential culprits have been ruled out except one.


"This is perhaps the most compelling evidence yet that global warming is happening right now, and it shows that we can successfully simulate its past and its likely future evolution. The statistical significance of these results is far too strong to be merely dismissed and should wipe out much of the uncertainty about the reality of global warming."


Dr Barnett said the results, which are about to be submitted for publication in a major peer-reviewed journal, should put further pressure on the Bush Administration to sign up to the Kyoto Protocol, which came into force on Wednesday. "It is now time for nations that are not part of Kyoto to reevaluate and see if it would be to their advantage to join," he said.


"We have got a serious problem ahead of us. The debate is not have we got a clear global warming signal, the debate is what we are going to do about it."


In a separate study, also presented to the conference, a team led by Ruth Curry of Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Connecticut has established that 20,000 square kilometres of freshwater ice melted in the Arctic between 1965 and 1995.


Further melting on this scale could be sufficient to turn off the ocean currents that drive the Gulf Stream, which keeps Britain up to 6C warmer than it would otherwise be. "It is taking the first steps, the system is moving in that direction," Dr Curry said.


"The new ocean study, taken together with the numberous validations of the same models in the atmosphere, portends far broader changes. Other parts of the world will face similar problems to those expected, and being observed now, in the western US.


"The skill demonstrated by the climate models in handling the changing planetary heat budget suggests that these scenarios have a high enough probability of actually happening that they need to be taken seriously by decision-makers."


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...1489955,00.html

If Bush keeps ignoring this, he should hang.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 00:41
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Oh.. and Dan S pwned.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 00:44
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I'd love to see HOW greenhouse gases are the only possible cause. Rising temperatures are nothing new...

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 00:47
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quote:
I'd love to see HOW greenhouse gases are the only possible cause. Rising temperatures are nothing new...


read the paper - nothing else fits.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 00:49
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Uh, Agathon, my question was exactly HOW nothing else fits...

The article is rather sparse on facts.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
King
of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 00:50
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Scripps Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla, California.

yep. we're the best.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 00:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I'd love to see HOW greenhouse gases are the only possible cause. Rising temperatures are nothing new...


the vast majority of climate changes in geological time are a result of changes in the level of CO2.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 00:56
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quote:
yep. we're the best.


Wood's Hole!!!!

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
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Feb 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
the vast majority of climate changes in geological time are a result of changes in the level of CO2.


That isn't anywhere near an answer to the question I asked.

Asmodean is offline Asmodean
King
Aarhus, Denmark
Aug 1999
time: 06:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:09 Visit Asmodean's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker


That isn't anywhere near an answer to the question I asked.


The journal article on their results hasn't been published yet...or so it says in the article.

Asmodean

Geronimo is offline Geronimo
King
st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:10
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What I want to know is how we are certain that a warmer world will be worse off overall than a cooler one.

The world as it is and has been historically is only arable over something like 7% of the earth's surface even if we include rainforests and other areas we'd rather not see converted to farm land. From whence comes the idea that all climate change will be inherently bad when our planet was in such crappy shape to begin with?

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker


That isn't anywhere near an answer to the question I asked.


It's not the ONLY possible cause, but it's the damn hell most likely.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
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  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Geronimo
What I want to know is how we are certain that a warmer world will be worse off overall than a cooler one.

The world as it is and has been historically is only arable over something like 25% of the earth's surface even if we include rainforests and other areas we'd rather not see converted to farm land. From whence comes the idea that all climate change will be inherently bad when our planet was in such crappy shape to begin with?


If I remember right the only countries that will be better off are Canada and Russia...

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:13 Visit DanS's homepage!
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These conclusions are based on models of unknown validity. This doesn't constitute "proof" in any reasonable, scientific sense of the word.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:14
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Newspaper articles don't prove anything. Is there a link to the actual study?

That said, those who'd deny anthropogenic global warming do not only have to give other causes for the observed warming, but also to explain how the huge amounts of CO2 released from fossil fuels have failed to produce global warming.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Geronimo
What I want to know is how we are certain that a warmer world will be worse off overall than a cooler one.


Ask the 100s of millions of people whose homes will be underwater when melting polar ice causes rises in sea level.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
It's not the ONLY possible cause, but it's the damn hell most likely.


You still haven't justified 1) your statement in your attempt to answer my question and 2) that it has any relevence to the question I asked, specifically, HOW is it that other things could not have caused the observed warming (not merely that they are unlikely compared to human CO2, but that somehow what was observed in the study somehow ruled them out).

Geronimo is offline Geronimo
King
st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Ask the 100s of millions of people whose homes will be underwater when melting polar ice causes rises in sea level.


I've never understood why they all want to crowd there in the first place.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:17
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I find it hilarious that right wingers deny the effects of humans on the climate citing there's not enough proof... but when it comes to religion? OOOOH BOY... those morons line up and go to church to pray to Jesus without any proof whatsoever.

Quite frankly, I'm not concerned about Global Warming. I don't deny it's happening, but I just wonder what all the fuss is about. Global temperatures were much higher during the time the dinosaurs lived. It's not like the planet hasn't experienced that before.

If anything, human activity is just accelerating a natural process.

We should strive to decrease pollution, but for other reasons than Global Warming.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:17
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That's right Kuci, God is breathing on the world to make it warmer.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
HOW is it that other things could not have caused the observed warming (not merely that they are unlikely compared to human CO2, but that somehow what was observed in the study somehow ruled them out).


The article stated that they ran a multitude of models based on all possible factors, and that only greenhouse gasses matched the actual data. Not only that, but they matched with a great deal of precision.

I find it amusing that DanS is so quick to dismiss the models, when he himself hasn't read the study.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:20
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I find it hilarious that Sava has to put up strawmen despite the fact that I've merely pointed out that the article makes completely unsupported statements (and expressed the desire to see the actual results of the study), and that he managed to somehow connect it to religion despite the fact that I and many of the other right-wingers here are atheists...

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
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Feb 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
The article stated that they ran a multitude of models based on all possible factors, and that only greenhouse gasses matched the actual data. Not only that, but they matched with a great deal of precision.


That's not an answer. That's just saying "it didn't fit".

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:21
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quote:
That's right Kuci, God is breathing on the world to make it warmer.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:21
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
These conclusions are based on models of unknown validity. This doesn't constitute "proof" in any reasonable, scientific sense of the word.

What scientific conclusions are not based on models of unknown validity?

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:22
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geez, kuci, do you have sand in your vagina today?

here's a clue, because you need one (actually more than one, but for this case, just one)... if you aren't a religious right-winger... then MY statement about religion and religious right wingers wouldn't apply to you.

Now go grow some pubes and get out of my face.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:23
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quote:
That's not an answer. That's just saying "it didn't fit".


No. It's saying that the favourite excuses of the right-wing nature rapers didn't fit, but the favourite excuses of the glorious sexy greenie girls who put out all the time did fit.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
quote:
That's right Kuci, God is breathing on the world to make it warmer.


<- unlike Aggie, you seem to have forgotten that I'm an ATHEIST

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
That's not an answer. That's just saying "it didn't fit".


It certainly is an answer. If the other models don't fit, but one does, what other conclusion is one to make?

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-02-2005 01:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I've merely pointed out that the article makes completely unsupported statements


But you don't know that they are "unsupported." The article is citing the conclusions of the study, which you haven't read. So why not just hush up until you've had a chance to read it?

 
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