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Ljube
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Belgrade
May 2003
time: 06:23
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Talk with Moonbars about the cost of writing and safe passage of our scout.
Ljube: says:
Moonbars:, what happened? You didn't offer any money for writing?
Ljube: says:
you said you could offer 200
Ljube: says:
if you don't fancy writing, we can sell you mysticism
Ljube: says:
for a small price
Ljube: says:
of say 100
Moonbars: says:
We have knowledge of Mysticism
Moonbars: says:
we don't think writing is worth 200 gold
Ljube: says:
what do you think writing is worh?
Moonbars: says:
about 100
Ljube: says:
that is to low, I don't think you'll find the seller for such low price
Moonbars: says:
lol, no I guess not. It;s just that we don't value writing, so we don't see any need to pay for it
Ljube: says:
indeed, still you'll need to research it yourself
Ljube: says:
good luck
Moonbars: says:
thanks
Ljube: says:
Ljube: says:
Moonbars, it has just occured to me that we have moved our scout close to your magnificent city of Aquarius.
Moonbars: says:
Indeed.
Ljube: says:
I hope it is not a problem
Ljube: says:
our scout is unarmed and only wishes safe passage
Moonbars: says:
as long as he doesn't tresspass, or get in the way of one of our warriors, he should be safe
Ljube: says:
I hope you won't deliberately kill him if he gets in the way of any of your warriors
Moonbars: says:
only if we wished to move where he was standing
Ljube: says:
Then you can draft a passage for our scout
Ljube: says:
direct his next move
Ljube: says:
and we will comply
Ljube: says:
OK, Moonbars, next two moves that you approve are?
Moonbars: says:
4 or 1 would be safest for him
Ljube: says:
ok, we will comply
Moonbars: says:
excellent
Ljube: says:
From this I gather they are preparing for the same thing we are: Assault on their neighbours who they consider the biggest threat/easiest kill. Remeber, according to what Moonbars told me earlier, they have nearly 200 gold at the moment.
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Ljube
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Belgrade
May 2003
time: 06:23
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Please comment my proposed message to Lost Boys. I haven't sent it yet.
quote:
Dear Neighbours,
I bear greetings from our illustrious leader, Great Khan Paddy the Scot.
I come to you on a mission of peace, seeking to establish friendly relations and trade. I also bear gifts from our Khan. Please accept this elaborate ceremonial sword which our Khan used when he defeated the Ligurian barbarians and dispersed their tribe.
The blade of this ornate sword is made of an alloy of bronze, iron and silver, an alloy unknown to your people. You may try it yourself, great Togas, leader of the Lost Boys. Here, try it on that log. You see how sharp it is. It does not bend.
And the answer to your next question is yes. Yes, Lord Togas, we can teach you to make these lethal swords yourself. We can teach you the secret of prospecting for iron and the secret of sword smithing. And what do we ask in return for such generosity? Only friendship and small financial compensation for salaries for our expert smiths and miners. Shall we say 100 gold pieces?
Regards
Ljube
Horde Ambassador
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Ljube
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Belgrade
May 2003
time: 06:23
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They replied even faster.
quote:
Ljube,
I am impressed with this weapon. It is, indeed, a fine sword, finer than what our forges currently produce. Such a heavy weapon. It requires close contact with one's enemy, demonstrating your lack of fear and your ferociousness.
You are welcome to visit, Horde Ambassador, and I will surely entertain you, as is our tradition. My honor would be tarnished if I did not extend you every courtesy and luxury upon your stay in my mannor. However, I do my master ill will by not explaining to you that I am merely a servant of a greater Lord.
You see, I am known as a Count, and I watch over many mortals. I am known as the Dominator of our Lord's many soldiers. However, I am not the leader of the Lost Boys. Our Lord is our leader. He oversees this great land, controlling everything. His hands and his eyes are everywhere.
I know that you will wish to speak to him next, but I urge you, instead, to speak to his Voice. The one who speaks for him is known as Count Nuclear (Lord Nuclear on Apolyton). He shall take audience with you and shall carry your words to our Lord.
I shall inform him of your arrival.
Count Togas
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Ljube
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Belgrade
May 2003
time: 06:23
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My short chat with Moonbars:
Ljube: says:
Hi Moonbars
Moonbars: says:
hello there
Ljube: says:
I played and sent madness and ic2
Moonbars: says:
playing them now
Ljube: says:
I'd like a short discussion with you about the demo game.
Ljube: says:
If you have time
Moonbars: says:
sure
Ljube: says:
First, colin, your warrior
Ljube: says:
I suppose he's a scout
Ljube: says:
am I right?
Ljube: says:
if he is a scout, why vet warrior, why not conscript or regular?
Moonbars: says:
all the warriors outside our borders are scouts
Moonbars: says:
we killed some barbs
Ljube: says:
ah, that explains things
Ljube: says:
I hope he is not planing on coming any nearer
Moonbars: says:
he certainly isn't authorised for any offensive actions or border crossings
Ljube: says:
we have a worker in the area
Ljube: says:
next to the border
Moonbars: says:
like I said - no offensive actions
Ljube: says:
fine, that's settled
Moonbars: says:
Moonbars: says:
how are ur researches progressing?
Ljube: says:
just what I wanted to ask you
Ljube: says:
our research is progressing very smoothly thanks for your interest
Ljube: says:
we are the most advanced nation in the world
Moonbars: says:
any interest in any trading?
Ljube: says:
indeed, always
Ljube: says:
I suppose you guys are on math
Moonbars: says:
yeah. I have to goto bed mate, 1am here TTYL
Ljube: says:
OK, we'll talk some more later
Ljube: says:
tomorrow that is
Ljube: says:
see you
Moonbars: says:
*WAVES*
As for Lost Boys, no reply yet. 
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Ljube
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Belgrade
May 2003
time: 06:23
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Reviving this thread after so long.
My rather long conversation with snoopy this morning in two parts since it won't fit in one part.
Snoopy:
you back yet?
Ljube:
back
Snoopy:
ah
Snoopy:
ok
Ljube:
We're pullin out our forces.
Snoopy:
so i gather you want to talk about CM's pots
Snoopy:
post*
Ljube:
which one?
Ljube:
ah yes
Snoopy:
the one about pulling your forces
Ljube:
yes, well no point in sacrificing then on antioch
Ljube:
heavily defended antioch
Snoopy:
*-)
Ljube:
OK, so the plan now is to get to chivalry as fast as we can
Snoopy:
That's always been the plan.
Ljube:
yes, well, it would have been best if we hadn't come after the DR at all, if we had let them attack you
Ljube:
there our forces would have waited
Ljube:
and destroyed their immortal armies
Ljube:
but never mind, at least sidon is destroyed
Snoopy:
Antioch is not heavily defended.
Ljube:
what makes you say that?
Snoopy:
One spear, and a bunch of immortals?
Snoopy:
many of whom are injured?
Ljube:
yes, we have not enough forces for so many immortals
Snoopy:
How many forces did you send ??
Ljube:
21 in that wave
Snoopy:
21 is more than enough, i'd say
Ljube:
we're preparing more forces even as we speak
Snoopy:
7 defensive units, and taking damage into account 4-5?
Snoopy:
you have 3 times as many units as them (ignoring horsemen and catapults)
Ljube:
it's not that simple, many regulars, can promote
Ljube:
very nasty
Ljube:
we would have lost all
Snoopy:
I'm aware of how the game works
Snoopy:
I think you'd win easily ...
Snoopy:
I see at most 5 HP possible from promotions
Ljube:
well, I prefer attacking with knights/keshik
Ljube:
you can attack from greater distance
Snoopy:
Let me put it to you this way.
Snoopy:
We sacrificed nearly our entire army, so this attack could go through.
Snoopy:
In my opinion, and the opinion of my team as far as I understand it, the attack has a good chance for success.
Snoopy:
We will be very unhappy if you pull out now, in addition to the frustration and outright anger we have over Chrisius' frankly absurd post.
Ljube:
none of this had any chance of success
Snoopy:
If we are to consider BoH an ally, you must be trustworthy, that once an attack is committed to, it is followed through on
Ljube:
first, attacking immortals and many of them for taht matter with swords is outright suicide
Ljube:
no matter what?
Snoopy:
No matter what.
Ljube:
no matter if all of us are broken after that?
Snoopy:
We lost a lot of good units to weaken them to this point.
Snoopy:
If you take antioch, and I believe you would, DR is finished.
Snoopy:
If not, they have a good chance to regroup.
Ljube:
The units you lost are not so good and nearly useless against the DR, in my opinion. I suggest the following plan.
Snoopy:
Sorry, ljube.
Snoopy:
I'm not interested in listening to a plan right now.
Snoopy:
You and Chrisius have a lot to answer for about his post in the forum, before we go any further here.
Snoopy:
That post, regardless of your battle plans, was a betrayal.
Snoopy:
A betrayal of our trust, and an inappropriate airing of internal concerns in a public forum.
Ljube:
I disagree.
Snoopy:
I don't care.
Snoopy:
It is how we see it.
Snoopy:
If you have problems with our plans, if you have problems with anything in-alliance, you talk about it internally.
Snoopy:
You don't post it in public forums where anyone can see it.
Ljube:
A betrayal is when we abandon you, don't protect you against common enemies, attack you, etc... Not when we save our units so we may attack another day
Ljube:
and in better circumstances
Snoopy:
I'm not talking about the battle plans.
Snoopy:
First off, if you're going to do something like this - withdraw from a planned attack - that better be talked about between us rather than aired in public first.
Snoopy:
Secondly, though, he was outright insulting to both the babylonians and to us in that post.
Ljube:
Well, I don't see how he was insulting. He merely stated some facts.
Ljube:
We sent most of units and achieved the only tangible victory for our allaince.
Ljube:
In fact we removed a very dangerous outpost Sidon.
Ljube:
DR were threatening to launch an assault on you from that outpost.
Ljube:
Look at the pattern of roads they built. Clearly, they intended to attack Metallica.
Ljube:
That is not possible anymore.
Ljube:
Our units are preserved to fight another day.
Snoopy:
Ljube, i'm not ready to discuss the battle plans yet.
Ljube:
Our units are mainly horses, thus chivalry will make great impact.
Snoopy:
We agree that chivalry will be a great boon to both of our civilizations.
Snoopy:
However, that does not mean we need to abandon the current attack.
Snoopy:
It costs a huge amount of money to upgrade a horseman to a keshik.
Snoopy:
You can't reasonably upgrade many of them.
Ljube:
If you are planning another wave of attacks, I'm happy to hear about it.
Snoopy:
This attack may be the best chance for those units to actually do some damage.
Snoopy:
We probably will indeed wait until chivalry to attack on our own, unless there's a good opportunity; we have little in terms of forces at the moment, thanks to our sacrifice.
Snoopy:
However, there's no reason for you to wait.
Ljube:
What you are suggesting is a suicide. We want a good fight, but a fight which we can win.
Snoopy:
You will likely win this battle - you have literally 3 to 1 numbers, and the attack : defense is not 1:3
Snoopy:
not on average anyway
Snoopy:
and as i said the HP numbers are even more in your favor
Snoopy:
and destroying Antioch, and thus making it hard if not impossible for DR to maintain their iron, will be a boon to our civilizations unmatched by any other
Snoopy:
you can't win a game without taking chances
Ljube:
I don't see what is th eproblem with what we did. Our forces will protect your horse city, which you should build asap. Then, you should start building horses which will later be upgraded to riders.
Snoopy:
but this is not an unreasonable chance
Ljube:
do you play chess?
Snoopy:
Yes.
Ljube:
you do?
Snoopy:
However, I don't see that this is particularly relevant here ... Chess has no random factor.
Snoopy:
unless you see your opponent as being a random player, but then he's probably not very good
Ljube:
It is relevant to the state of mind
Ljube:
here is how it goes
Snoopy:
Sometimes you need to sacrifice a larger piece to gain a better position ... that's how I see it.
Ljube:
in chess, the best trait is the ability to understnd when to switch from offensive to defensive
Snoopy:
sure
Ljube:
players that have keen understanding of that are succesful
Snoopy:
not sure i'd say best, but certainly high up there
Ljube:
those that keep attacking no matter what regularly lose
Snoopy:
You should have decided this weeks ago, Ljube
Snoopy:
this force is not unlike what we expected
Ljube:
Our best chance at the moment is to regroup and plan another operation with chivalry. The DR will likely celebrate this as victory and maybe try a counter attack.
Snoopy:
I have no doubt that the Horde has differing opinions, and this causes the change
Snoopy:
but ... it's not acceptable to your allies
Snoopy:
a few weeks ago, this was considered a good attack
Ljube:
well, we didn't know all facts at the time
Snoopy:
now we take out half of their immortals, essentially, and in doing so lose a large chunk of our forces
Snoopy:
This force is not unlike what we expected
Ljube:
teh DR proved stronger than expected and the commitment of our allies weaker
Snoopy:
we hoped perhaps a smaller one - but not surprised by this either
Snoopy:
You of all people have no business saying that last statement.
Snoopy:
Babylon attacked - not as big a force as i'd have liked, but they at least did their duty
Snoopy:
We distracted DR for as long as we could
Snoopy:
while we waited and waited for your group
Snoopy:
You delayed 1 turn ... remember, about 4 turns ago?
Snoopy:
moved 1 towards us before going in?
Snoopy:
that's the difference between you facing 3 units, and you facing 9.
Snoopy:
Allowed DR to get 6 Immortals into the town.
Ljube:
well, better to have delayed 4 more turns and joined the army group west
Ljube:
and you could have also sent reinforcements
Snoopy:
Timing is everything in this
Ljube:
I had expected that much of you
Snoopy:
And left our homeland entirely empty? No.
Snoopy:
We had no significant reinforcements, anyway
Snoopy:
at the time our forces left, we had a single swordsman in the entire territory
Snoopy:
and a few small units
Snoopy:
1 horseman, 1 or 2 archers
Snoopy:
that's it
Snoopy:
we might have added 1 or 2 swordsmen at best
Snoopy:
we have a grand total of 5 at the moment ...
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Ljube
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Belgrade
May 2003
time: 06:23
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Same conversation continued:
Ljube:
ok, what is doen is done, now we must look to the future
Ljube:
the future is bright if we recognise the opportunities and seize them
Snoopy:
We believe that antioch must be destroyed, and that your force has a good chance to do it.
Ljube:
this is passion and not reason talking
Ljube:
antioch will be destroyed, in time
Snoopy:
Hah.
Snoopy:
Reason, in fact, not passion.
Snoopy:
I am not one to get passionate about very much, honestly.
Snoopy:
That's why i'm still talking to you.
Ljube:
LOL, the oters are pissed?
Snoopy:
Heck, i'm pretty pissed
Snoopy:
and it's not a laughing matter ...
Snoopy:
I'll be very shocked if Babylon remains in our alliance, after that farce of a post by CM
Snoopy:
very shocked indeed
Snoopy:
with luck they won't join DR.
Ljube:
their commitment has proven them not needed at all
Ljube:
let them
Ljube:
if they help teh dr the way they helped us, the DR is lost
Snoopy:
If that is how you treat your friends ...
Ljube:
they did very little to show their friendship
Ljube:
unlike you of course
Snoopy:
Look. This game is not the same as a normal PBEM, Ljube, and you have to understand that in a game like this, the most important thing to an alliance is trust and follow through. We have to trust that you will do what you say you will do, or there is no point in us allying with you.
Ljube:
indeed
Snoopy:
Attack or not, that is obviously your call.
Ljube:
we never said we would attack antioch
Snoopy:
However, it will be very negatively viewed in our eyes if this is called off.
Snoopy:
That's a lie.
Ljube:
we said we would attack and destroy sidon
Ljube:
that we did
Snoopy:
Paddy repeatedly reassured us that you were on the way to antioch.
Ljube:
we were on our way, but never sure of the actual attack
Ljube:
you see, we're a large team, so many people doing math and things
Snoopy:
You're a black box as far as we're concerned.
Snoopy:
What happens on the inside matters none to us
Ljube:
so, it was never planned that the horde would perform a suicide mission
Snoopy:
we want to know what you *do*.
Ljube:
we wanted to take antioch, not try and fail
Snoopy:
As i said before, it is your team's choice as to go to attack or pull back.
Snoopy:
However
Ljube:
it's not the horde way to try and fail
Snoopy:
it will be viewed very negatively on our end for you to pull back.
Snoopy:
You must sometimes take risks ... you will never succeed otherwise.
Snoopy:
If you always act according to the math ...
Snoopy:
after all, look at DR's second attack on us
Snoopy:
that certainly wasn't according to the math ...
Ljube:
they play tested it
Ljube:
the only reasonable explanation
Snoopy:
I don't think they cheated.
Snoopy:
Anything else would show that the odds are that they lose on the average.
Ljube:
yes
Snoopy:
We had 4+ average defense on that mountain.
Ljube:
yes
Snoopy:
Even straight up, they'd be losing more than they killed ... hence, I think they took a chance, knowing they had one good opportunity.
Ljube:
I don't think so. They tested the outcome, plain and simple.
Snoopy:
That's why DR is in a good position right now ... they take chances when needed. Our side has not done so as yet.
Snoopy:
That's cheating, and nobody on the DR team would I even imagine accusing of such.
Snoopy:
Accusing them of cheating is the coward's way at it.
Snoopy:
We admit that they took a chance, and beat us.
Ljube:
I wouldn't accuse them in public, no, I have no proof, and yet that's what they did, logic dictates that.
Snoopy:
No. That's the coward's way - blaming others for your failure (or poor luck, or whatever.)
Snoopy:
I call it what it is - taking a chance, and it paying off.
Snoopy:
I have enough guts to say that they beat us, plain and simple.
Snoopy:
Now we need to counterattack in the same way - take that chance, now that the opportunity lies on our side.
Ljube:
they beat us now, but soon with chivalry, they will lose
Ljube:
the fact that you fail to see is that delaying our attack benefits us all
Ljube:
thsi attack if executed now, may succeed and may not
Ljube:
but an attack with keshiks and riders will succeed
Ljube:
and teh DR are gone
Ljube:
there is no defence from keshiks and riders
Snoopy:
By then they'll have pikemen, if not muskets
Snoopy:
4 attack versus 3+50%+50% defense
Ljube:
haha, no muskets
Snoopy:
you'll have the same argument then ...
Snoopy:
pikemen are better than muskets anyway
Ljube:
how so?
Snoopy:
better GP per HP ratio by far
Ljube:
who will supply them with techs necessary for that? we won't
Snoopy:
it's a commonly accepted strategy to wait to connect saltpetre until Cavalry ...
Snoopy:
They're already researching Feudalism, undoubtedly
Snoopy:
will finish that before we finish chivalry by a long shot
Ljube:
they are not even in teh next age, are they?
Snoopy:
if they got Engineering, then they could easily get to muskets before we attack
Snoopy:
We believe they may be in the next age
Ljube:
just a sec
Snoopy:
I am not sure why we believe that - McM could say - but we believe it.
Ljube:
they are in teh next age, you are right
Ljube:
they don't have monarchy and literature, but have oter techs
Snoopy:
undoubtedly they are pushing for Feudalism
Ljube:
yes, unless they got it for free
Snoopy:
I think we believe they did not get it free
Snoopy:
Babylon may have confirmed that
Snoopy:
i'm not 100% sure
Ljube:
then yes, they are probably pushing for feud
Ljube:
they will need more than 20 turns I guess?
Snoopy:
I doubt it
Snoopy:
they are scientists
Snoopy:
and if they push for it ...
Ljube:
that doesn't reduce the cost of techs, does it?
Snoopy:
been a while since i played a sci civ that far
Snoopy:
yes it does ...
Snoopy:
that's the only major advantage of sci
Snoopy:
without SGLs anyway, in many games
Snoopy:
and SGLs of course are only an advantage as a result of such
Snoopy:
i forget the difference - it may be 50% bonus to lightbulbs -> 66% of normal times
Snoopy:
but it's been a while
Ljube:
I thought it was the extra tech at the beginning of every age, not discount on techs
Snoopy:
i believe it is both (and i'm not sure how i forgot that *-) )
Ljube:
uh, then it is overpowering
Ljube:
I doubt it
Ljube:
Even teh bonus tech is very strong, if tech discount, that's too much.
Ljube:
well anyway, they were unlucky, they didn't get feud, so we should hurry with preparations for our new atatck.
Ljube:
tell me, how many turns till monotheism, I suppose you're researching that?
Snoopy:
i don't recal
Snoopy:
you may be right, it's been too long since i played sci civ
Ljube:
Snoopy, which tech is more expensive: Monotheism or engineering?
Snoopy:
20 turns i think
Snoopy:
Mono or Engineering ... Mono
Snoopy:
Mono and FEudalism are same, i think
Snoopy:
F is definitely the more expensive, tied with one other
Snoopy:
i worked this out a while ago but i have poor memory
Snoopy:
but ... this is really beside the point
Ljube:
I think it is a very important point, as I could tell you what teh DR got.
Snoopy:
doesn't matter
Snoopy:
i'm pretty sure they failed to get Feudalism
Ljube:
Yes, but if they got mono, perhaps it could be extracted from them inexchange for monarchy and literature.
Ljube:
that would speed us up to chivalry
Ljube:
think positive, think about the future
Snoopy:
okay now i'm confused
Snoopy:
my info in my spreadsheet indicates feudal is the cheaper, M=E>F
Snoopy:
but i think this is incorrect
Ljube:
this is correct
Snoopy:
hmm, then my other info was incorrect
Ljube:
feudal is teh cheapest tech offered to us, mono follows, eng is teh most expensive
Ljube:
do you have feud?
Ljube:
in game
Ljube:
this is how it stands right now
Ljube:
thsi implies that teh DR got mono
Snoopy:
we don't
Snoopy:
i don't think have feudalism
Ljube:
this means, if we're smart, we can extract it from them and make it the instrument of their doom, hmm...
Snoopy:
we will have Feudalism next turn, i presume
Snoopy:
but yes forcing DR to give you monotheism would be nice
Snoopy:
but i doubt it would work
Snoopy:
and i'm not willing to make a fake peace deal
Ljube:
perhaps it would, for peace
Ljube:
it's not fake
Ljube:
it's a 20 turns peace deal
Ljube:
just like any other and when it expires, hehe
Snoopy:
i doubt they'd take it
Snoopy:
if they would, they're idiots
Snoopy:
and they're not ...
Ljube:
it;s worth a try
Snoopy:
not sure who's active over there, but you have most of the great DG players on that team
Ljube:
it would be very nice to get mono, but in any case, we can research it at higher pace now that they have it
Snoopy:
yes
Ljube:
OK, so you're 20 turns from it. who is going to do teh researching and who is going to do teh funding?
Snoopy:
This has been determined already, as far as I understand
Snoopy:
look, i'm tired of talking right now, and you have gotten us off of the subject.
Ljube:
I heard it was us giving money, you researching
Ljube:
ok
Snoopy:
I suggest holding onto the turn and discussing this more tomorrow.
Ljube:
all right
Snoopy:
Good night.
Ljube:
it's paddy's birthday anyway
Ljube:
good night to you too
Ljube:
I'll write an email with topics for discussion
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25-03-2005 20:44
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