25-02-2005 02:57									#31
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I got the same PM from Krill btw


I think the reasoning behind going for pottery rather than warrior code is that in an aggressive game like this pottery will likely be easier to trade away. You are almost guarantueed to have an unique tech

	25-02-2005 03:42									#32
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Hmmm...The ultimate answer to this depends on when we decide to take them out. If it is soon, I say no. If we want to use them as allies for a while then I would seriously consider the offer.

well it looks like Krill ignored the general post and just Pm'd all of us. Possibly hoping he would get some different answers from us, thus giving them a better picture of what we have etc.

at this time I am not sure who we would be allying with them against, and see them as our biggest threat so far

	25-02-2005 04:05									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot at this time I am not sure who we would be allying with them against, and see them as our biggest threat so far

Let's take 'em out then.

We do have two loyal new warriors to work with.

	25-02-2005 04:10									#34
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I'm maintaining contact with Krill and exchanging frequent emails. Here's the latest one:

quote: (this is aa purely personal point) The only prgrams that I can us on this laptop are IRC, email, and PM. the other point is that I don't have any authority what so ever, as everything is debated in our team, so you would have to wait in any case. ormuzd could use MSN, but the same restrictions would apply. And, finally, could you please remove my email address from yoour post in the main forum. Krill

Extremely inefficient organisation and a rather xenophobic message. I think I should be the only one to keep contact with them, but we should also prepare for war asap. I'm going to stall in diplomacy.

	25-02-2005 04:25									#35
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Yes indeed, as our Ambassador you should be the one to keep contact with them, through any means possible

Lets us move talk of war to The Porkers

	25-02-2005 07:32									#36
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New proposal to the Euphoricans: Let's form a tech allaince


Ljube: says:
Hello snoopy, noble ambassador of the glorious Chinese
Snoopy: says:
Ahem... noble Foreign Affairs Secretary ...
Snoopy: says:
or minister even
Snoopy: says:
how goes it Ljube: of the Horde?
Snoopy: says:
(NW aside i mean of course )
Ljube: says:
Sorry for my ignorance, the Mongols can hardly scribe their names let alone foreign titles
Snoopy: says:
yes i find this a problem among my peoples as well
Ljube: says:
Our Horde is prospering, thanks for asking
Ljube: says:
we have plenty of food to grow and our warriors are numerous and fierce to protect our women
Snoopy: says:
ah excellent
Ljube: says:
are our Chinese broters as fortunate as we are?
Snoopy: says:
Our warriors are ... well trained ... and our farmers ... able to find adequate water and soil for their crops ...
Snoopy: says:
(Our scribes just discovered the 'ellipsis' and are quite amused by it, if you can't tell )
Ljube: says:
We come with a proposal that will benefit both our nations
Snoopy: says:
Ahh
Snoopy: says:
we like proposals ...
Snoopy: says:
especially ... beneficial ... ones ... with lots of characters and ellipses ...
Ljube: says:
as the trust and friendship between our two peoples grows, we think that it can be cemented for eternety with a research treaty
Snoopy: says:
Hmm. This will have to be ... discussed ... amongst the many peoples of the Chinese empire ... the Han ...
Snoopy: says:
although ... perhaps your bretheren the Manchu ... might have some ... influence over us in this area ... it remains to be seen
Snoopy: says:
So ... what is ... your plan that you ... bring?
Ljube: says:
Researching different technologies and trading them.
Ljube: says:
Researching second level techs in different branches
Ljube: says:
gaetting technology edge
Snoopy: says:
Hmm.... edge is good ...
Snoopy: says:
Perhaps the Han shall discuss your ... proposals, and ... return with a measured response ... in a short time-frame.
Snoopy: says:
It is said by our scholars, "He who works well with others, works well himself."
Ljube: says:
As a token of goodwill on our side and appreciation for your consideration of our offer, we're going to share with you the secret of our current research project. We are on bronze working now.
Snoopy: says:
We expect ... some time may be taken to discuss this proposal, as its effect will not be felt for a period of time. "Only fools rush in", as the great scholar Pres'ley El'vis says.
Snoopy: says:
Alright... we will return to you in the fullness of time, with our decision. May peace guide your steps, my friend, and war drive your sword.
Ljube: says:
War is hell. We have reached a decision to peacefully co-exist with your gracious nation. This agreement if signed will affirm our friendship and evolve into much more in time.
Ljube: says:
May future generations look upon this moment with pride.
Snoopy: says:
We are sure our ancestors (few though they are at this point) will look favorably upon our mutual gathering...
Ljube: says:
In anticipation of your return with a reply to our offer I bid you farewell, your Excellency.

	25-02-2005 07:35									#37
	Tired of ads?

Some more private talk followed which exposed Snoopy for a warmonger that he is. Then this as a conclusion:


Snoopy: says:
oh, i sent the save to you in c3cdg btw
Ljube: says:
don't know since they involve physics
Ljube: says:
lol, played already?
Ljube: says:
so what of our deal?
Snoopy: says:
Well, the deal will have to wait a turn or two to finalize ... not sure what the rest of them think
Ljube: says:
that's ok, but at least you shouldn't pick bronze cause we'll have it soon
Snoopy: says:
To be completely honest, i doubt a 100% tech sharing deal is likely to be reached in a demo game by any two parties ...
Snoopy: says:
but something is quite possible
Ljube: says:
this world is a very dangerous place
Snoopy: says:
I want to see what rhothaerill and mcmeadows and platy think before I say anything more.
Ljube: says:
that's ok, I can understand that

	25-02-2005 07:48									#38
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hmmm...This is a big and well placed step. I hope they can see the benefit of such an alliance. Without similar alliances among others, this could quickly reduce the game to our two civs.

A masterful stroke Ambassador!

	25-02-2005 08:24									#39
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indeed well done Ljube

keep up the good work

	25-02-2005 14:38									#41
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Hmmm...This is a big and well placed step. I hope they can see the benefit of such an alliance. Without similar alliances among others, this could quickly reduce the game to our two civs. A masterful stroke Ambassador!

The extent of their enthusiasm with my offer surpassed my most optimistic expectations. Here is the last email received from Snoopy.

quote: We are strongly considering a research cooperation pact. We do not yet have a majority vote on the matter, but in an hour or so we may. As a good faith offer, we would tell you that we have already obtained the knowledge of Bronze Working, and will trade it for a reasonable value in current or future tech next turn. Assuming we work out this deal, I would like it to be worded in the following manner. BOH-Euphorica Pact of Technical Cooperation and Mutual Aid 1. Blood Oath Horde ("BOH") and Euphorica shall engage in a Cooperative Venture to mutually advance in technical prowess in a manner that aids both sides, in choosing technical ventures and in the trading of such concepts. 2. To aid in this venture, BOH and Euphorica shall, each time a technical research is completed, inform each other of the completion of said technical research. 3. Furthermore, BOH and Euphorical shall, each time a new technical research is commenced, inform the other of the new technical research. 4. BOH and Euphorica shall, upon completion of a technical research, first offer such research to eath other prior to offering that research to any other team. A reasonable trade must be offered in good faith, if such a trade is possible. 4a. If such a trade is not possible with extant techs, the researching nation should consider the possibility of trading for a future tech credit, particularly a tech within five turns of completion. 5. Any tech accepted in a trade under this deal from the other team shall not be offered in trade to a third party, without sharing 50% of the benefits of such trade with the other team, unless approved beforehand. 50% is defined as 50% of the point value (c3c editor base value) of such tech in present or future techs, or a gold or luxury equivalent agreed to by both teams. This may be taken as partial credit for an otherwise unfair trade (for example, trading bronze working away to another team once traded for under this agreement, a 4 point tech, means that if later a trade of, say, Construction for CoL is offered - the team with the 2 point 'credit' offering CoL - it should be considered fair, rather than unfair, given this additional credit (which is then cancelled). 5a. Any tech self-researched may be traded with others with no penalty, providing (2) and (4) have been fulfilled. 6. If one party is asked by the other to engage on a less 'credit worthy' line of research - such as researching polytheism and HBR instead of Currency and Construction - that fact should be taken into account in trades, or the other party should be given the option of researching half of the 'harder' techs. If it is ultimately less useful for both parties to switch off in this way (for example if research times don't convieniently line up) then 'straight up' trades should be considered, or a fair GPT deal for the duration of the 'harder' vs. 'easier' techs situation should be arranged. In no case shall this deal be used to force one team into researching less valuable techs and ultimately be unable to keep up with the other team because of this. 6a. If such a situation occurs as in (6), both parties should be restricted from trading the techs they research, unless they share 100% of the benefits of those trades with each other, assuming a fair deal has been made to evenly divide research costs; a fair deal being described either as one determined fair by both sides, or at minimum a deal that involves a transfer of gold equivalent to the beaker difference in research, in a 1 for 1 exchange ratio (ie 1gp = 1 beaker). If no deal has been made of that nature, but techs gained in this way are traded 1 for 1 (ie a harder tech traded straight up for an easier tech) between BOH and Euphorica, then both teams should share 50% of the benefits of their trades of their respective harder and easire techs. 6b. BOH and Euphorica are in no way forbidden from researching the same techs by this agreement, and if one team feels the other is unfairly profiting from researching a specific tech first, the other may freely research said tech as well. However, this is a poor situation for both sides, and should be avoided at any reasonable cost. 6c. If Philosophy is researched first by either team, then the resulting free tech should be given to the other team for free, assuming they have made a reasonable trade for philosophy, and have been otherwise making reasonable trades throughout the course of this deal. If a reasonable deal for philosophy is not possible at that time, nor in a reasonable amount of time thereafter, the team researching philosophy is free to keep the bonus tech with no penalty. 6d. Scientific Method. 6d(i). If one team researches Scientific Method, and on the same turn uses a prebuild to (on the next turn) build Darwin's Voyage, or any turn prior to the first turn that the other team might concievably have build Darwin, then the other team should be given one of these technologies for free, and the other one for a cost not to exceed the cost that Scientific Method was traded for (or will be traded for) (and this must be a reasonable cost for Sci. Method.) 6d(ii). If on the other hand, Scientific Method is built later than described in 6d(i), then both technologies should be traded at a reduced cost, but not for free; the builder may set the cost for both technologies, at a reasonable level. 6d (iii). Both parties should discuss the building of Sci. Method ahead of time, so that one party does not waste shields on it, and consider making both techs traded for a reasonable cost (to offset the cost of building the wonder). 7. Expiration. This deal expires upon one of the following conditions. 7a. If three consecutive techs are researched by one team and not traded for within ten techs of researching the third tech, by the other team. 7b. Upon 1 tech notice by one team; the next tech researched by each side should be traded under this agreement, but any following techs do not fall under this agreement. 7c. Upon the declaration of war by one party on the other party. Such should be considered a breach of this agreement, and not a simple expiration. 7d. Upon the completion of each era, this document should be reviewed and re-certified by both sides, to indicate that both sides believe they benefit by this arrangement. One side refusing to recertify it at the beginning of a new era indicates the expiration of this agreement. 7e. If one side determines that the other side has not fairly dealt with them, by showing proof to a neutral third party (such as a moderator or non-player in this game) that the other side is in substantial breach of one of the major clauses in this contract - (4) through (6). -- This is a draft, and either side may demand revisions to this contract. It is not binding at this point and has not been agreed upon by either side. -- Please let me know what you think about the contract, and I'll let you know post-haste about the agreement to agree from our side. Either way we will trade Bronze working for a reasonable present or future tech value. -snoopy369

Now, this is too elaborate to be just a hoax. I think we have earned their trust and with this offer they have earned ours. Perhaps we can enlist them to join our crusade against Aqua, but we can't tell them anything about Porkers.

My display of good faith telling them we're researching bronze has prompted them to tell us they already have it which means they have contact with a civ that starts with bronze.

	25-02-2005 15:42									#42
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Ok, lets discuss this team and learn what we can of them and their play styles

this information can only help Ambassador Ljube, and Chief Chrisius of the xxxxxx Division


See you at The Euphoricans thread

	27-02-2005 06:47									#43
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OK, summary of my long conversation with Snoopy:

1. Wanderers move south by southeast. Euphorica has agreed to let us pop a hut there under following conditions:
a) If knowledge share with them.
b) If warrior give them 10 gold.
c) If 25 gold give them 15 gold.
d) If settler or city, keep it but later build road to connect our cities to theirs for resource trading.

2. Euphorica has agreed to give us bronze immediately for ceremonial burial next turn (hence the deal with the Porkers). Part of this deal is us starting iron working (it will start automatically and we will need 13 turns to complete) and them starting the wheel (they said it's 9 turns away) and then trading these two techs. The deal is a bit unfavourable towards us, but since their first neighbour is aqua I sense we'll have some discounts on future techs. Also if we pop the wheel from the hut they let us pop we'll have the upper hand anyway.

3. Snoopy is between Aqua and us. This probably puts him northeast of us, and aqua directly east of us. Also, Snoopy says that Moonbars told him they would have pottery soon, which indicates aqua and his team first researched pottery. This means they are not nearer to iron than we are and if beta didn't start iron either, this means we'll be first to iron which is great and may even get us a sci leader (now that would be grand).

4. Euphorica is too weak militarily (they are weaker than aqua) so I suspect they started granary. It is not an unwise move since they don't fear an attack from us and will produce settlers much quicker.

5. Of luxuries they have one source of ivory and an undisclosed number of furs sources. I told them we have dyes.

For your entertainment I'll post part of our conversation.

quote: Ljube: says: I fear that Carthage won't trade writing Snoopy: says: ah yes Ljube: says: will assume a very militaristic stance Ljube: says: build GL Ljube: says: build SoZ Ljube: says: build many units Ljube: says: and count on near impossibility of a world alliance against them Snoopy: says: hehe Snoopy: says: This is possible. Ljube: says: that's how I would play it Ljube: says: if carthage Snoopy: says: Lord Nuclear may well do it that way Ljube: says: regarding pottery and trading it with aqua, how do you know he wasn't lying to you when he said he was near pottery? Snoopy: says: Because Aqua didn't say it Snoopy: says: Moonbars did. Snoopy: says: And he said they would have it this turn Snoopy: says: which is something we can check Ljube: says: indeed Ljube: says: it's pretty foolish to start with pottery Snoopy: says: Well, not necessarily Snoopy: says: they might have decided to go for growth Snoopy: says: We did, after all Ljube: says: pottery is near worthless Snoopy: says: I wouldn't if i were them ... but Snoopy: says: Granaries aren't... Snoopy: says: all depends on the starting terrain Snoopy: says: someone with little to no food bonuses has to build granaries asap Snoopy: says: and with only 1 civ having pottery to start out with ... Ljube: says: civs that build granaries have a deathwish Snoopy: says: hehe Snoopy: says: Not necessarily... Snoopy: says: although Persian civs that do, probably do Snoopy: says: With the 3 settler start, it is not unreasonable to build 1 granary at a time ... Snoopy: says: with the other 2 working on military operations. Ljube: says: hmm, I guess we difer at that point Snoopy: says: hehe yes hence why civ is interestin Ljube: says: probably reason why we're strong militarily and you are weak

	27-02-2005 11:30									#44
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You are a cheeky old fella

well done in your negotiations

and the hut is goooooooood indeed

	06-03-2005 01:14									#45
	Put an end to popups!

Ambassador Ljube, do you have any more conversations with the Euphoricans that could be posted?

These conversations give us all a great insight into their thinking

	16-03-2005 06:34									#46
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Great Khan Paddy, instead of posting the last conversation with Euphorica, I'll just post the result:

I told them we popped the settler. I didn't tell them we popped mysticism. Will tell them a few turns later.

They agreed to let us pop another hut nearby.

Without delay, just after he climbs that mountain, our Bataar should proceed east by northeast until in about 4 turns he reaches the hut. The conditions for hut popping are the same except if we pop another settler which we can't because we already have one.

	16-03-2005 12:32									#47
	Put an end to popups!

ahh most excellent work indeed

well all these huts are good value for us and our trading partners

I have met with Snoop and McMeadows at times recently, but have refused to be drawn into business discussions, as I do not want to trip up any such negotiations that you have underway. Personally I feel that this is a good policy for the Horde, allowing Ambassador Ljube to hold all official negotiations and discussions, and keeping any other contacts that we have light and friendly.

Your work as our Ambassador has been of great value to the Horde, and you will go down in the histories as a great Horde Statesman.

	17-03-2005 04:53									#48
	Got spare money?

The conversation with Snoopy from last night for the entertainment of the Horde:



Ljube: says:
hi snoop
Snoopy: says:
lo
Ljube: says:
we got a settler from that hut you left us, so it's up to our workers to build road between our two civs for the purpose of trading
Snoopy: says:
okey cool
Snoopy: says:
guess what we found
Snoopy: says:
btw
Ljube: says:
what?
Ljube: says:

Snoopy: says:
another hut *-)
Ljube: says:
lol
Snoopy: says:
not far from the barbarian camp
Ljube: says:
great!!!
Ljube: says:
our other warrior which killed the barb camp will continue there
Snoopy: says:
closer to our civilization than the barbarian camp, if you get my drift
Snoopy: says:
kk
Snoopy: says:
it's not far, as you can tell
Ljube: says:
relative to the last hut, east west north or south?
Snoopy: says:
um southeast
Ljube: says:
excellent!!
Ljube: says:
far?
Snoopy: says:
no
Snoopy: says:
like 4 turns
Ljube: says:
great!
Snoopy: says:
same deal etc.
Snoopy: says:
if a settler again we'll work something out
Ljube: says:
4 turns from barb camp?
Ljube: says:
yeah same deal
Snoopy: says:
from last hut i think
Snoopy: says:
thereabouts
Snoopy: says:
v. close to barb camp
Ljube: says:
very very nice
Snoopy: says:
unless there are two barb camps
Ljube: says:
the last barb camp was on a hill between three mountains
Ljube: says:
is that the barb camp we're talking about?
Snoopy: says:
did you kill it this turn?
Snoopy: says:
the one i'm talking about existed last turn
Ljube: says:
we killed one this turn
Snoopy: says:
ah then perhasp that
Snoopy: says:
i do think mountains were involved
Snoopy: says:
can you see our warrior from there?
Ljube: says:
no, but perhaps next turn when we climb that easternmost mountain
Snoopy: says:
ah
Ljube: says:
of the three
Snoopy: says:
then you will probably be able to see the hut
Ljube: says:

Ljube: says:
you cannot imagine the joy that hut will cause
Snoopy: says:
hehe
Snoopy: says:
you in need of huts?
Ljube: says:

Ljube: says:
eager to pop
Snoopy: says:
hmmm
Snoopy: says:
no i don't think it's the same camp
Snoopy: says:
i just lookd at screneshot
Snoopy: says:
it's a barbarian camp in the forest
Ljube: says:
uh, that means farther away
Snoopy: says:
about 3 squares directly east ... hmm
Snoopy: says:
from the last camp
Snoopy: says:
*hut*
Snoopy: says:
sorry
Snoopy: says:
go south once from the barbarian hut
Snoopy: says:
and then east three and you should be ok...
Ljube: says:
you know where our warrior is?
Snoopy: says:
nope
Snoopy: says:
but i know where the last hut was
Snoopy: says:
and i'm assuming you're on it *-)
Ljube: says:
the one that popped the hut is already escorting the settler back home
Ljube: says:
we have another one near, south of that
Snoopy: says:
ahh
Ljube: says:
just killed the barb camp on a hill between three mountains
Ljube: says:
so that one will proceed east
Ljube: says:
he's about 3 turns south of the former hut
Snoopy: says:
ok so directly east then will do i think
Snoopy: says:
and a north or two
Ljube: says:
excellent
Ljube: says:
we'll climb the mountain and probably see that hut
Ljube: says:
if not, we'll head east till we find it
Snoopy: says:
k
Ljube: says:
thatnk you very very much for your generosity
Ljube: says:
we will be generous also
Snoopy: says:
well it helps that you get good returns from huts and we get nothing
Snoopy: says:
so we appreciate yours as well.
Ljube: says:
iron in 4
Ljube: says:
how about wheel?
Snoopy: says:
k wheel sooner than that
Snoopy: says:
not sure how much, didn't play this past turn
Ljube: says:

Ljube: says:
we'll know all resources and be able to deny access to them to our enemies
Ljube: says:

Snoopy: says:
that's the plan stan

	17-03-2005 12:27									#49
	Inflate your Upload Space

I love it when a plan comes together

Long Live the Horde

	17-03-2005 18:16									#50
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Looking forward to your discussions with Team Babylon

	17-03-2005 22:52									#51
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Just a quick question for the Ambassador or our great leader. Out of curiosity, have the porkers tried to contact either one of you in the last few turns. It would seem to me that they would be trying to contact us if they did not have an evil plan for us on their minds. Also, have we decided to cut off all communications w/ them in preparations for war or are we willing to sell them the idea that we do not plan war and use a surprise attack? Just curious as to what our thoughts are... I will post again in another thread for more relavant porker talk.

	17-03-2005 23:10									#52
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by solax sell them the idea that we do not plan war and use a surprise attack

	17-03-2005 23:27									#53
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Dear Khan, Ambassador, and fellow citizens:

In your meetings w/ Babylon... should we ascertain through talk who they are in contact with? I know at one point in the threads there was talk about Babylon being a possible ally. With our recent cooperative agreements w/ Euph, in what light are we expecting to see w/ the Babylonians?

	18-03-2005 02:15									#54
	Tired of ads?

Babylonians are a valuable ally against the pigs. Other than that and when pigs are gone, Babylonians led by insolent Beta will be one of our prime targets and not allies at all.

Let me remind those of you who have forgotten it: Beta desecrated our holy thread in the demo game forum and insulted our horde. A crime punishable by death.

Last edited by Ljube on 18-03-2005 at 02:29

	18-03-2005 02:53									#55
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko Babylonians are a valuable ally against the pigs. Other than that and when pigs are gone, Babylonians led by insolent Beta will be one of our prime targets and not allies at all. Let me remind those of you who have forgotten it: Beta desecrated our holy thread in the demo game forum and insulted our horde. A crime punishable by death.

yes indeed... Beta will indeed go the way of the Betamax... used by the professionals then destined to the scrap heap when a more advanced format arrives

	18-03-2005 04:41									#56
	Increase Your PM Length

I beg forgiveness from the Horde, for I still haven't sent a message to Babylonian Ambassador. Not to justify my lack of action but simply to state the facts, the Babylonian strange decision to have two Ambassadors appointing the more isolationist one (GameCube64) to the post of Ambassador with our Horde has not helped me either. He's on my MSN but never seems to be online.

While I'm waiting for him to surface and contemplating what to put in an email in case he doesn't, I'd like to ask the members of the Horde for guidance as to what I should say.

I don't think we should tell them about our plans regarding Porkers yet and they have no techs to offer in exchange, so the discussion will be devoid of content and reduced to an exchange of courteous phrases.

Last edited by Ljube on 18-03-2005 at 04:47

	18-03-2005 06:10									#57
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If I'm correct... I thought the Babs had Mysticism.. if so does this mean they are heading toward polytheism and monarchy for trade or $ reasons? How much more of a help is Monarchy to the babs.. and is Monarchy something we will eventually want?

	18-03-2005 12:24									#58
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Monarchy will be nice to have.

However, Babs don't have mysticism, we do. Babs have: bronze, warrior code, pottery, masonry and ceremonial burial. They don't have wheel or alphabet.

	18-03-2005 12:43									#59
	Tired of ads?

well maybe just a nice "how ya going" opener would be good

I agree that we keep our own council on any attack plans

would be good to have some sort of relationship for when we do the pigs in...

Also I expect to hear from Lord Beta at some stage soon... I will report back when this occurs

	18-03-2005 15:43									#60
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Here's what I sent:

quote: Dear Ambassador, We're pleased with our first contact with the Babylonian people and would like to establish good relations and close cooperation in future. Though you have no techs to offer us at the moment, we would be happy to arrange future tech exchanges. For that purpose we would like to ask you about your current research project and we will reciprocate by telling you about our current research project. May Inanna bless our relations and may they grow under her benevolent guardianship. Regards Ljube Horde Ambassador