22-02-2005 22:28									#31
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What a bunch of bullshit propaganda designed to ready the waters for another military build up. The US need enemies. It can't survive without them. The end looks near anyway. Another Cold War won't save the US.

	22-02-2005 22:33									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil Perhaps Europe would be happier with China as the world's policeman?

Looks that way. Even Supercitizen seems to caught up in the feeling.

	22-02-2005 22:34									#33
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At least they make good food.

	22-02-2005 22:36									#34
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But you're hungry again an hour later.

	22-02-2005 22:36									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko At least they make good food.

and pizza is not good food?

	22-02-2005 22:40									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident and pizza is not good food?

Italian domination would be much better.

	22-02-2005 22:41									#37
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The Chinese have a right to buy weapons and the stuff the EU will be selling won't be that different from what the Russians are already selling. We should all sell to the Chinese and just make sure the US/UK holds back the very latest stuff for our own forces. It won't hurt to keep helping Taiwan so that some sort of rough detante is maintained.

Historically, developing countries which invested big in the military have been losers. Latin America, Africa, and the (non-oil producing middle east) all spent big on weapons instead of schools and modernization and they paid the price in the form of lower growth, lack of resources for social problems, and higher national debt. As long as we invest enough in our military and maintain alliances then war can be detered & money made off the Chinese.

	22-02-2005 23:02									#38
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What a stupid, innane article.

And who wrote the title to that anyways? Was it the journalist or you DinoDoc? Whoever it was, I find it funny how fast whatever Bush says enters into the lexicon of every right wing idiot there is.

Bush says the US and EU are an "alliance" (12 times in the speech yesterday) and now suddenly its true.

But listen Dino. Why shouldn't the EU be able to sell China arms? What are they going to do with them besides equip their army, the same thing the US does. Only wacko right wing politicos and armchair pundits see China as anything but a commercial threat. They're not invading anyone. They couldn't even invade Taiwan for Christ's sake.

Get real, and keep on chasing those ghosts.

	22-02-2005 23:07									#39
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DD, not really, the article was pure BS and one of the most dangerous articles I've read in my life. If you like Hitler speech, then it's ok, but if not, then there's plenty wrong in it. I don't want China to rule the world, but then agian I don't want the current US to rule the world either. It needs to change back to what it was, the cool country, now it looks more like China. You've been decepted.

	22-02-2005 23:10									#40
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to Europe. I don't want another f*cking cold war, especially with a country with over 4 times as many people as my country. The only way in hell that I would sell the Chinese weapons is if they become a democracy.

	22-02-2005 23:44									#41
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If China is so bad, how come the US has so much trade with them?

	22-02-2005 23:45									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Sava If China is so bad, how come the US has so much trade with them?

because the republican party serves big business before they serve the american public.

businesses save money by using chinese made products, and trade with china.

	23-02-2005 00:05									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident because the republican party serves big business before they serve the american public. businesses save money by using chinese made products, and trade with china.

THE REPUBLICANS ARE EVIL COMMIE-LOVING TRATORS!

	23-02-2005 00:06									#44
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Everybody should cool down on this one. This article is full of BS and is either a great troll or pure propaganda (read: lies) of dumb blond intellectual level (= Ann Coulter).
No NATO nation is allowed to sell anything to non-NATO countries without the agreement of the others.
It's part of NATO contract.
"U.S. soldiers would find themselves going up against an adversary armed with NATO technology. " is PURE B.S.

The problem I have with that kind of BS (or troll?) is that there ARE people to believe it.

I wouldn't use this article even as toilet paper, as I prefer paper with no sh!t already on it for my own @$$.

If it is not a troll, its probably only anti-european american right-wing propaganda, based on ... on ... yeah, based on what?.

	23-02-2005 00:08									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka DD, not really, the article was pure BS ...

Everyone is saying that but no one so far has provided a cogent reason why aiding a totalitarian, anti-democratic state against a free, deomcratic state makes either political or strategic sense for Europe?

	23-02-2005 00:17									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Dry No NATO nation is allowed to sell anything to non-NATO countries without the agreement of the others. It's part of NATO contract.

I call BS otherwise there'd be no point with all this lower the arm embargo talk cuz permission won't be given.

	23-02-2005 00:49									#47
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You know, if the US military and their fanboys didn't constantly carp on about their newest weapon system, China wouldn't feel under the same pressure to upgrade its military.

	23-02-2005 01:31									#48
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"But if the E.U. resumes trading arms to China, it will, in effect, become a full partner in the modernization of the People’s Liberation Army, already the most destabilizing trend in East Asia. By developing a large and growing fleet of ballistic and cruise missiles and submarines and acquiring Russian attack aircraft and destroyers, Beijing, with no external threat to its own security, is driving a new and extremely dangerous arms race in the Pacific. "

So we should rather watch the Chinese developing own stuff - or buying from elsewhere? I am not exactly sure if that stops what the article calls "already the most destabilizing trend in East Asia".

And how do we expect China to put pressure on NK because of its nukes if we treat it already like an enemy, for example, when the article seems to be implying that China shouldn't be allowed to upgrade its military?

	23-02-2005 01:47									#49
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DD, I don't know what good it does. But if US would do it, there would be absolutely no thread about it. It would be 'hey great to see we are warming up!'. THat's the hidden hypocricy in this, because we all KNOW it would be the argument of certain folks, whose **** never stinks.

But as for what good would it do to some European countries to open up, I don't know. Money? Nah really I have no idea.

	23-02-2005 02:08									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Everyone is saying that but no one so far has provided a cogent reason why aiding a totalitarian, anti-democratic state against a free, deomcratic state makes either political or strategic sense for Europe?

And I used to think 'Mericans didn't understand irony.

In fact, irony of logic is flowing so thick in both directions that I almost missed the troll.

	23-02-2005 02:51									#51
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And I for one will welcome our new insect overlords...
[/PATIENTLY WAITING]

	23-02-2005 03:01									#52
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Am I seeing things or are some posters actually FLIP-FLOPPING in this thread?

	23-02-2005 03:03									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I call BS otherwise there'd be no point with all this lower the arm embargo talk cuz permission won't be given.

Ok, I made some search and it seems you are right.
What need a full agreement is the deployement of NATO units.
It seems indeed that, would the embargo be lifted, the selling of material could occur.
Of course, the usual international rules, about selling weapons to countries at war, remain active.

Today, China's main suppliers of advanced technologicasl weapons, are Russia and Israel (no embargo from their side).

Those mainly interested in the lifting, are France, Germany (eurocopter, missiles) and Italy (Augusta). UK in a lesser extend.

	23-02-2005 03:04									#54
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quote: Everyone is saying that but no one so far has provided a cogent reason why aiding a totalitarian, anti-democratic state against a free, deomcratic state makes either political or strategic sense for Europe?

M-O-N-E-Y

	23-02-2005 03:18									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Everyone is saying that but no one so far has provided a cogent reason why aiding a totalitarian, anti-democratic state against a free, deomcratic state makes either political or strategic sense for Europe?

As far as I could understand, this is neither strategic nor political.
Seems to me a pure economical problem.
The big 4 weapon sellers in the world are USA, Russia, France and UK. Behind comes countires like Germany, Italy, Sweden, Brazil and Israel. And China itself, of course.

With the embargo running, those who making big money with China are those not involved: Russia and Israel.
France, Germany and a few others don't like that. And they want their shares.

The problem is that China is a big market forbidden to USA for strategical reasons.
The embargo is ok for them, because it forbids huge market shares to 2 of their competitors (France and UK).

All this sh!t is a war between weapons sellers.
USA is the nice guy, but I don't think it's really purposely.

	23-02-2005 03:20									#56
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Does anyone here not believe that China is a more open society than it was 15 years ago?

Does anyone think that things in China are going to get more or less repressive in the next 15 years?

Does anyone think that the Chinese should abandon "communism" the same way the Russians did, with the same results?

	23-02-2005 03:30									#57
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Agathon, I don't think this is the problem.

The problem is Taiwan.

China does not want to exclude force to get back Taiwan. That's why the embargo was confirmed by EU parliament a few month ago.

But France and Germany are puting more and more pression on the EU for the lift.
Some smaller weapon sellers could be tempted.

	23-02-2005 03:34									#58
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quote: The problem is Taiwan.

As I've said elsewhere, this "problem" is sorting itself out in the long term.

China won't ever admit that Taiwan is not a renegade province, mainly because it is. On the other hand, the Taiwanese government still maintains that it is the legitimate government of all China.

They'll sort it out eventually. I wouldn't be too scared of Chinese saber rattling.

	23-02-2005 03:44									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko The US getting cut down a couple of notches is a great benefit to the world. You guys are horribly incompetent at being a world policeman. And like I said to pchang, preventing a multipolar world is not in anyone but the US' interests.

Problem: The US is strong enought to bully us around.

Solution: Help the PRC to become strong enough to bully us around too.

Somehow, that doesn't seem very attractive to me.




From the American perspective, BTW, this is clear evidence that they should integrate their defense industry further with Europe's. Take, frex, Sweden's chief claim to weapons racing, the JAS 39 Gripen strike fighter aircraft; it includes so much American stuff that America was able to secure de facto veto over to whom it can be sold.

	23-02-2005 04:09									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Does anyone here not believe that China is a more open society than it was 15 years ago? Does anyone think that things in China are going to get more or less repressive in the next 15 years? Does anyone think that the Chinese should abandon "communism" the same way the Russians did, with the same results?

"Trade, China, & Freedom?

Tuesday, June 19, 2001

DOES REPEATING SOMETHING MAKE IT SO?

"Open trade is a force for freedom in China...."
President George W. Bush, May 29, 2001

"U.S. and China Reach Consensus on China's Accession to WTO"
Office of the U.S. Trade Representative, June 9, 2001

"China has charged veteran labour activist Li Wangyang with subversion, a Hong Kong rights group said on Monday."
Reuters, June 11, 2001


(Sources: "Remarks by the President to Los Angeles World Affairs Council," Los Angeles, Cal., May 29, 2001, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/rele...20010531-8.html; "U.S. and China Reach Consensus on China's Accession to WTO," press release, Office of the U.S. Trade Representative, http://www.ustr.gov/releases/2001/0610-36.htm; "China charges labour activist with subversion group," Reuters, June 11, 2001)"
http://www.tradealert.us/view_art.asp?Prod_ID=1051

I don't happen to think that China is any more open then they were.