23-02-2005 10:27									#91
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quote: Either way we are the reason for China's growth (or rather access to western markets, allowing our companies to invest there, and our greed for cheap goods are the reasons) even if we don't want to admite it. There is nothing majorly concrete about China's liberal reforms but their desire to continue to expand trade is a powerful lever we can use to avoid conflict.

They don't want to kill us, they want to sell us stuff. Their whole model of development is based around this fact.

I don't see them as particularly hostile.

	23-02-2005 10:32									#92
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Is Agathon worth taking of ignore for this thread?

	23-02-2005 11:15									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon They don't want to kill us, they want to sell us stuff. Their whole model of development is based around this fact. I don't see them as particularly hostile.

Then you aren't paying attention to the retoric about Taiwan nor their continuing support for North Korea. The threat can be managed easily enough with the right diplomacy but it still exists.

	23-02-2005 11:22									#94
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I already said you had nothing of substance to add. There's no reason to keep proving me right. Now if you'd like to rise above the muck of Agathon's post perhaps you could tell me how lifting the embargo would be a good idea beyond the fact it would please you because you feel pissed at the US.

To criticize someone else's opinion, you have to actually HAVE ONE yourself.

Blindly posting an article without any commentary and waiting to snipe people as they show up doesn't count.

So, what are you scared of anyway? The big bad Chinese are going to take our place as baddest kid on the block?

	23-02-2005 11:31									#95
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I'm scared of a nuclear WW3 starting in East Asia. I guess you're telling me that wouldn't be so bad, eh?

	23-02-2005 11:35									#96
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I'm sure after we invade we will confiscate the weapons of mass destruction.

Wait...

	23-02-2005 11:43									#97
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Way to be, Ted. You're now more interested in harping on the same tired topics than you are in constructively dealing with serious issues. Your transformation into a leftist idiot is complete. Congratulations.

	23-02-2005 11:47									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I'm scared of a nuclear WW3 starting in East Asia. I guess you're telling me that wouldn't be so bad, eh?

India and Pakistan are far more likely of starting that.

	23-02-2005 11:47									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I'm scared of a nuclear WW3 starting in East Asia. I guess you're telling me that wouldn't be so bad, eh?

Who's going to nuke who? Seriously, Pakistan and India have a detante, Russia has enough to deter any nuclear attack, China has a small nuclear arsonal but decent long range missiles while North Korea only has a handful of nukes and only medium range missiles. Japan, south Korea, and Taiwan are all explicitly in the American umbrella so MAD protects them.

North Korea won't nuke anyone because they don't have enough nukes to finish anyone off while the response would certainly destroy them, China is in the same boat with fewer then 50 warheads they can't knock out an estabilished nuclear power so they'd get killed in the response. That just leaves India & Pakistan who both have small nuclear arsonals so it isn't unthinkable one leader could think a sneak attack could knock out the other's nukes. That's about the only creditable senerio for nuclear war in Asia and even that's pretty remote.

	23-02-2005 11:49									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Way to be, Ted. You're now more interested in harping on the same tired topics than you are in constructively dealing with serious issues. Your transformation into a leftist idiot is complete. Congratulations.

It's all intertwined together, genius.


We waste our entire military on Iraq, meanwhile North Korea gets nukes, and we are powerless to stop them. So now you're here blaming China for the possible outbreak of world war 3.

Sweet deal.

	23-02-2005 11:56									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Blah blah blah. More American whining. Why should we care about what you want? You can't do anything to anyone anyway. Your mighty military is being held down in Iraq by a bunch of machine gun toting youths after all.

If this is the case, then why do the U.S.-bashers persist in calling America an evil hyperpower?

Gatekeeper

	23-02-2005 11:56									#102
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To be fair North Korea is allied with China so we would be powerless to stop them even with no Iraq unless we wanted to start a general war in Asia.

	23-02-2005 12:00									#103
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That's true but the fiasco in Iraq drastically reduces both our political and military leverage, and worst of all, has taken our credibility to one of the lowest points ever.

Plus it has also encouraged all these Axis of Evil and Friends countries to get nukes as fast as they can to defend themselves from any possible aggression, whether it's real or perceived.

Then there is the problem of sabre rattling, which has only made the situation much worse than it had to be.

All of these things have undermined our ability to deal with the situation.

Last edited by Ted Striker on 23-02-2005 at 12:06

	23-02-2005 12:08									#104
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quote: India and Pakistan are far more likely of starting that.

Why can't we be worried about both?

quote: Who's going to nuke who?

You could've made the similar argument during the Cold War. Did that make the Cold War a safe time, just because everyone involved had logical reasons not to start a nuclear exchange?

	23-02-2005 12:14									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: India and Pakistan are far more likely of starting that. Why can't we be worried about both?

Just saying there isn't that great of a chance of war with India and Pakistan (in fact nukes may have prevented a war between the two states in the late 90s... not like they weren't due for one), so basing your fears on an East Asian nuclear WW3 is kind of silly. Nukes prevent warfare, as they did between the USSR and US (without nukes, WW3 would have occured, I'm sure of it).

	23-02-2005 12:18									#106
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quote: You could've made the similar argument during the Cold War. Did that make the Cold War a safe time, just because everyone involved had logical reasons not to start a nuclear exchange?

I'd argue it made it a safer time, because nukes kept the Cold War a cold war. Without them, a hot war would have erupted at some point. Yeah, people lived in fear, but you didn't have hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of Americans die in a direct war with the USSR.

	23-02-2005 12:21									#107
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Bring on an arms race, then. Imran says it's safe...

	23-02-2005 12:39									#108
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Anything worth contributing besides trying to make personal digs on other posters?

Didn't think so.

	23-02-2005 13:01									#109
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Look back a couple pages, slick. There's a good article on the Senkakus that may teach you a thing or two...

	23-02-2005 13:07									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon As I've said elsewhere, this "problem" is sorting itself out in the long term. China won't ever admit that Taiwan is not a renegade province, mainly because it is. On the other hand, the Taiwanese government still maintains that it is the legitimate government of all China. They'll sort it out eventually. I wouldn't be too scared of Chinese saber rattling. ... quote: Everyone keeps forgetting about Tibet. I don't. You have a weak country smack between two enemies. Do the math. ... They don't want to kill us, they want to sell us stuff. Their whole model of development is based around this fact. I don't see them as particularly hostile.

Ah, I see. Because they aren't rattling their sabres at you it isn't important. By "sorting itself out" you mean, "Hey, what's another few million people falling under the thumb of the mainland Chinese government? Maybe they'll like it better."

"Tibet's f***ed anyway, so they're not worth worrying about." Another shining example of Aggy's leftie compassion.

quote: Is Agathon worth taking of ignore for this thread?

Judge for yourself.

	23-02-2005 13:11									#111
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I just reade the crap OP. and what single things stands out: why should the Europeans give a **** about US hegemony over the Pacific? Its not liek the US has been a worthwhile stewrd of democracy in the region at all until only the last few years... As for the notion that China has no external threats, so why should they buy weapons- what external threat does the US actually have that justifies a 400+ billion dollar military budget?... That is the underlying notion at the root of this moronic piece- that everyone out there in the world should accept the current system of US military domination just because we are the nices, best, most lovable people ever and everyone should see that, and anyone who does not must be bad!

Well, for one thing we like to take seriously that old saw, "He who does not learn from history is doomed to repeat it." For example, the Brits saying in 1932 that there was no possibility of war within 10 years. How they were too weak just 5 years later to oppose Hitler, the Brits and French turning their backs as Hungary was forced to surrender the Sudatenland.

If you are weak, your enemies are encouraged to take advantage of that weakness. There was no WW3 against the Soviets because we never let down our guard. There will be no WW3 with the Chinese if we continue to keep our guard up.

Is this principle something you honestly don't understand, or are you merely ideologically obtuse? "If we all just laid down our guns there'd be no more war."

quote: At least the Europeans when they controlled the world were not so deluded as to think that people should gladly submit to the world system they imposed even if they did think themselves better than everyone else.

Hah! The Europeans did think the races of the lands they colonized should be grateful for the internal peace, education, and other benefits of civilization brought in.

	23-02-2005 13:12									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker That's true but the fiasco in Iraq drastically reduces both our political and military leverage, and worst of all, has taken our credibility to one of the lowest points ever. Plus it has also encouraged all these Axis of Evil and Friends countries to get nukes as fast as they can to defend themselves from any possible aggression, whether it's real or perceived. Then there is the problem of sabre rattling, which has only made the situation much worse than it had to be. All of these things have undermined our ability to deal with the situation.

"Fiasco?" The only fiasco in Iraq is that half our "allies" were too corrupted to honestly face the situation. US credibility hasn't changed one whit. Those who like to paint the US as teh gr8 eeevil may have grown more vociferous now that they have something tangible to complain about from the safety of their armchairs.

So do you think NK and Iran weren't trying to get nukes while Clinton was in office? These programs are not merely 2 years old.

So do you think we should promise not to brandish our arms and ask NK and Iran, "Don't develop nukes, pretty please?"

	23-02-2005 13:15									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Look back a couple pages, slick. There's a good article on the Senkakus that may teach you a thing or two...

WOW




A couple of islands that most nations agree belonged to Japan in the first place and China only half-heartedly claimed. Japan finally got around to reassert itself over something it already had rights to.

CHINA'S RESPONSE: NUCLEAR WAR BEYOTCH!!!!!!




not

	23-02-2005 13:19									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker That's true but the fiasco in Iraq drastically reduces both our political and military leverage, and worst of all, has taken our credibility to one of the lowest points ever. Plus it has also encouraged all these Axis of Evil and Friends countries to get nukes as fast as they can to defend themselves from any possible aggression, whether it's real or perceived. Then there is the problem of sabre rattling, which has only made the situation much worse than it had to be. All of these things have undermined our ability to deal with the situation. "Fiasco?" The only fiasco in Iraq is that half our "allies" were too corrupted to honestly face the situation. US credibility hasn't changed one whit. Those who like to paint the US as teh gr8 eeevil may have grown more vociferous now that they have something tangible to complain about from the safety of their armchairs.

Okay.

quote: So do you think NK and Iran weren't trying to get nukes while Clinton was in office? These programs are not merely 2 years old. So do you think we should promise not to brandish our arms and ask NK and Iran, "Don't develop nukes, pretty please?"

North Korea already HAS nukes. Please try to keep up.

	23-02-2005 13:30									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker WOW A couple of islands that most nations agree belonged to Japan in the first place and China only half-heartedly claimed. Japan finally got around to reassert itself over something it already had rights to. CHINA'S RESPONSE: NUCLEAR WAR BEYOTCH!!!!!! not

Good lord Ted, what happened to you?

	23-02-2005 13:40									#116
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I'll just say this: Take a close look at how Chinese treat their own people. Then ask yourself, how would they treat foreigners, if they held power over them?

	23-02-2005 13:42									#117
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Chirac isn't too concerned about that, DaShi. It doesn't appear as if most Euros are either.

	23-02-2005 14:02									#118
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quote: Chirac isn't too concerned about that, DaShi. It doesn't appear as if most Euros are either.

Or most of the Americans posting in this thread, sadly enough...

	23-02-2005 14:41									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Is it totally inconceivable that the Chinese might actually be friendly people? Oerdin. Will you answer my questions above? Do you think that China is heading in the right direction overall or not?

Why don't you run over there and find out for us? You won't be missed in North America, and I'm sure that you're just the sort of free thinker that the Chinese government needs to continue its reforms. They'd probably give you a parade.

	23-02-2005 14:49									#120
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Hey why doesn't America sell arms to China? I'm sure they could outbid the EU and out quality the Russians.

1. You'd be sure of exactly what they're getting.

2. You'd make more money

3. You'd actually have a real excuse to continue Reagan era 'defense' porking.

4. You'd put their spies out of work and practice.