01-03-2005 14:18									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Issue two is simply laying the blame for poverty in black america squarely on the U.S. government shoulders. I don't he how the telling the truth can an excuse for failure.

By what bizarre sequence of events do you manage to place the blame for black poverty on the U.S. government? Even half the blame is going way too far. What about the approx. 50% of blacks who are doing ok economically? What's the difference between them and the other half which typically rank at the bottom of almost every statistical category relating to education, health, economics? And how did government action create this discrepency?

	01-03-2005 15:25									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear The Jews?

That's precisely the people I had in mind when I spoke about "3,000 years ago". Don't tell me you still believe this crap that was used to to convince the Jews back when they were an illiterate primitive people of herders

	01-03-2005 19:33									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander By what bizarre sequence of events do you manage to place the blame for black poverty on the U.S. government? Even half the blame is going way too far. What about the approx. 50% of blacks who are doing ok economically? What's the difference between them and the other half which typically rank at the bottom of almost every statistical category relating to education, health, economics? And how did government action create this discrepency?

Read your history book. Your statement that TODAY 50% of blacks(including me) are doing okay economically does not erase the facts of how blacks got here and what blacks went through since being here.

	01-03-2005 19:57									#34
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yes.

but on the other hand, the fact that 'blacks' were oppressed in the past can not be used as an excuse to explain present failure. I agree that a watchfull eye must be kept on discrimination to keep it in check.
But it seems to me that most of the vocal blacks about the issue are the ones that if in the hypothetical case they would replace the white man, would just screw things up through their total lack of abilities to become something else than the low end of society.

	01-03-2005 20:01									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Elok "George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and other famous Americans" did useful and constructive things for their country to get buildings named after them. They weren't perfect people but they did something worthwhile with their lives. Farrakhan just whines and acts as a divisive force. Nuts to him.

Interesting. By your measure Farrakhan is on the level of these other "famous americans" could he has done useful and constructive things to help his community. Just take his programs to feed and educate the poor or any of the programs he sponsors to promote the things I already mentioned.
I agree that he MAY hate whites(americans, europeans) as a whole but not necessarily individual whites. That's hate and not racism. He also has reason for the hate. From other speeches that I have heard and you have apparently not, he speaks of a desire to reconsile with white america. He has also spoken of a need to change some of the beliefs of the NOI. But you have to understand that any change in a religous organization will probably be slow. Consider also that base of the NOI is people that came together because of racism they were subjected to. These people by and large have been peaceful and have only sought to improve there own situation. They have not taken up arms in rebellion/dissent nor have they been parties to hate crimes. The NOI also teaches obedience to the law even the laws of segregation that were prevalent when the organization was founded. The only times the NOI really comes into conflict with the law is when the law is so intolerant that it can't help but be crossed. So far, this pretty much has not happened. As radical groups go, this is a very law abiding one.

I have read some of the core beliefs of the NOI. I can't say that I agree with most of them. But from the standpoint of a person that has yet to choose a religion I cannot dismiss their beliefs anymore than I can dismiss catholics, jews, protestants, orthodox christians, sunnis, or shiites.

Spiffor,
On arrival slaves were stripped of their language and heritage. Any ethnic identity left was mainly physical. Blacks in america share the common bond of diet based on scraps from massah's table(chitlin's and etc), broken english, and slave ancestors.
Blacks calling themselves brother and sister comes from the NOI and other groups building that among us to promote a unity of purpose and self-reliance.

	01-03-2005 20:09									#36
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis yes. but on the other hand, the fact that 'blacks' were oppressed in the past can not be used as an excuse to explain present failure. I agree that a watchfull eye must be kept on discrimination to keep it in check. But it seems to me that most of the vocal blacks about the issue are the ones that if in the hypothetical case they would replace the white man, would just screw things up through their total lack of abilities to become something else than the low end of society.

READ MY POSTS. Farrakhan is not offering EXCUSES for FAILURE. I'm not offering EXCUSES for FAILURE.

Who are the Vocal Blacks you are referring too? What are you talking about?

The fact is that blacks as a large portion of American society has been previously enslaved, subjugated and discriminated against for most of the history of the United States. My generation is the first to benefit from equal opportunity initiatives. You cannot right several hundred years of wrong in one generation. It is also the responsibility of the government that supported this injustice to right it. THOSE ARE MY BELIEFS. Do you somehow this agree?

	01-03-2005 20:24									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor That's precisely the people I had in mind when I spoke about "3,000 years ago". Don't tell me you still believe this crap that was used to to convince the Jews back when they were an illiterate primitive people of herders

	01-03-2005 20:25									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Spiffor, On arrival slaves were stripped of their language and heritage. Any ethnic identity left was mainly physical.

didn't know that. Well, as a result, defending a "black identity" may make sense. I don't think it will contribute to healthy race relations though.

	01-03-2005 20:50									#39
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I watched the academy awards. I'm getting tired of the black thing. Not that they are finally getting some of the recognition and rewards that they've been denied in the past (because I think it's about time), but the whole "i am what I am because I'm black". If you use skin color to define who you are and look differently at those with other skin colors, you're proclaiming that you are different.

We're all Americans. That should be enough. I'm not Italian, German or Irish (even though that is my heritage), I"M AMERICAN. We're all Americans. But it's like being black supercedes being an American. My fear is that if they keep saying they're different, some might stop treating them as Americans and treat them as something different. Granted there is still hatred and misstreatment out there, but the goal should be to be treated the same. There are many of us that do treat them the same, but are constantly being bombarded with the message that they're different.

I guess it just seeing that while trying to correct historical injustices, they're hampering themselves from the true final goal. No differences.

Now, I'm sure there are cynics out there will say, that's it's easy to say what I say since I'm white. That's part of the problem.

	01-03-2005 20:58									#40
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quote: You cannot right several hundred years of wrong in one generation.

Interesting, off all the peoples who have endured an extended time of slavery, and there are hundreds, black Americans are the only ones who have taken so long to recover, and they are also the ones who have had the greatest access to the tools to recover.

Not that American slavery was by any means the most bruttal during its time in history, it was however quite a bit more brutal than other minorities in the US. So how many gernerations do you want? so far you have had 8. Took most other minorities in the US 2 to not only recover, but integrate and thrive.

As for NOI, they do have lots of laudable goals. The Nazi's were into community service, education, health care, hard work, raising families, etc. /tThe question is what is the goal of all these laudable efforts. In the NOI's case, it is to destroy the white man.

	01-03-2005 21:31									#41
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I'm of the opinion that black America is in better shape now than ever. It is true that the black family has broken down, but so has the white family, to a lesser degree. It's also true that some urban black communities were destroyed wholesale in the crack epidemics of the 80s and early 90s. On the other hand, there's now a critical mass of black middle class people who seem to lend a lot of stability and a reasonable way to realize the American Dream.

The good economic times of the late 90s really helped in this regard. If the polls are to be believed, that's when the majority of black people no longer believed that they were being discriminated against.

Personally, I have had a minimum of high regard for the self-appointed leadership of the black community. However, I get the sense that it's becoming clear that the Jesse Jacksons and Farakhans of the world do not represent the majority black interests.

Last edited by DanS on 01-03-2005 at 21:38

	01-03-2005 21:38									#42
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Eh, I'd like to see a speech where Farrakhan actually heals racial wounds instead of deliberately opening them. Everything I've heard from the man involved mudslinging, harrassing the Jews, and appealing to xenophobia. Granted, what I've heard isn't much, because I quickly learned not to listen to him. My distrust of him was actually increased, which I hardly believed possible, when he teamed up with the Moonies for the MFM a few years back. If he is an honest man then he's an honest men with horrible taste in friends.

Oh, and I agree with pretty much all of what rah just said. Except I prefer to be "human" before "American." Hair-splitting, I know.

	01-03-2005 21:50									#43
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Yeah, human is probably the better term.
But you know how different we Americans are.

	01-03-2005 22:10									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Pax I agree that he MAY hate whites(americans, europeans) as a whole but not necessarily individual whites. That's hate and not racism.

Racism is using race as the most important factor to categorize and judge people. Farrakhan is certainly a racist.

quote: On arrival slaves were stripped of their language and heritage. Any ethnic identity left was mainly physical. Blacks in america share the common bond of diet based on scraps from massah's table(chitlin's and etc), broken english, and slave ancestors. Blacks calling themselves brother and sister comes from the NOI and other groups building that among us to promote a unity of purpose and self-reliance.

Wouldn't it be better to try to assimilate with the whites and be an American culture rather than try to create a cultural enclave? This discription that you offer sets blacks against whites by its nature. Isn't it time that we try to overcome the sins of the past rather than focus on them?

	01-03-2005 22:20									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Pax I agree that he MAY hate whites(americans, europeans) as a whole but not necessarily individual whites.

That's exactly the definition of racism. Every racist has his "good Negro", "good Jew", "good Arab" or whatever, in order to make a point that he is in reality not a blind hater.

And actually, being a racist doesn't entirely prevent one from accepting some individuals as worthy of respect (or even friendship) despite them coming from the "inferior" race. That's because "all them blacks/jews/arabs are scum, but this doesn't apply to my friend/my esteemed colleague"

It's fairly exceptional when a racist never shows any sympathy for one member of the race he despises.

	01-03-2005 22:57									#46
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quote: That's precisely the people I had in mind when I spoke about "3,000 years ago". Don't tell me you still believe this crap that was used to to convince the Jews back when they were an illiterate primitive people of herders

primitive - maybe, illiterate - no.

	01-03-2005 23:01									#47
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quote: That's exactly the definition of racism. Every racist has his "good Negro", "good Jew", "good Arab" or whatever, in order to make a point that he is in reality not a blind hater.

Nope. That doesn't have to be that. Hitler didn't have any "good jews".

He doesn't even have to hate a race to be a racist: just to make a judgement about a person based on his ethnicity: and Farrakhan definetly does that.

	01-03-2005 23:15									#48
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quote: Originally posted by rah We're all Americans. That should be enough. I'm not Italian, German or Irish (even though that is my heritage), I"M AMERICAN. We're all Americans. But it's like being black supercedes being an American. My fear is that if they keep saying they're different, some might stop treating them as Americans and treat them as something different. Granted there is still hatred and misstreatment out there, but the goal should be to be treated the same. There are many of us that do treat them the same, but are constantly being bombarded with the message that they're different.

Except that the fact that blacks are criminalized far mroe than any other group shows this is NOT true. Its nice that in a site that is 98% NOt black people apeaks about how blacks should get over it- nice to say, but its not true that white people actually believe it- if you are a white killer, just blame a black man-everyone will believe you. The fact blakcs have an imprisonment rate 8 TIMES greater than that of whites shows that this "we are all Americans" is not yet TRUE.

So while its wonderful for people to speak about the end of race, the simple statistics show race seems to be a powerful issue still.

quote: I guess it just seeing that while trying to correct historical injustices, they're hampering themselves from the true final goal. No differences.

Some of them do harm themselves by focusing on the past, nto the future. That at the same time should not obscure the truth that the past shapes the present, and the immense wrong done to blacks was never in any way trully dealt with.

quote: Now, I'm sure there are cynics out there will say, that's it's easy to say what I say since I'm white. That's part of the problem.

I am not black either, and the issue remains that immense differences in earning power, in evene the ability to vote due to disemfrichisement laws, mean that race still matters.

I agree that blaming whites for current problems solves nothing, but thinking there are no issues left either except black bitterness is false too, because the fact is the immense disadvantage blacks were given in this country has not been made up.

	01-03-2005 23:24									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Nope. That doesn't have to be that. Hitler didn't have any "good jews".

Even he did. He explicitely demanded that his mother's deathbed doctor would live.

	01-03-2005 23:29									#50
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quote: Even he did. He explicitely demanded that his mother's deathbed doctor would live.

Not the same. I don't think that this was part of any ideology of his, rather a deviation from it. In any case, even he probably thought of him as worthy to live despite his jewishness.

	01-03-2005 23:32									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff It's black Islamic Fascism.

No, because it's not Islam. It's just Black fascism.

	01-03-2005 23:44									#52
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis yes. but on the other hand, the fact that 'blacks' were oppressed in the past can not be used as an excuse to explain present failure.

In sports, there's a race know as a relay race. Each person races along, then hands off a baton to another person. Individual effort is important, but those who ran before you are also important.

Now, in the relay race of life in the U.S., the Black team was hobbled (i.e., had their legs bound) for the first three legs of the race. Right now, they ar far behind the white team. Because the runners in the 4th leg are not hobbled, the white team claims that the Black team has no reason to complain, and that they should be able to succeed entirely upon their own merit.

The fact that Black were oppressed for three hundred years (begining with the Slave codes in the late 17th Century), is very much a reason for Black / white disparities. Your statement also ignores the fact that de facto oppression continues to this day, and not just from "ignorant" whites, but from authorities as well. I have seen it with my own eyes.

	01-03-2005 23:47									#53
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GePap, while you bring up a lot of valid points, none of them have anything to do with what I said. I know there are current inequities, I don't deny it. I'm just saying that by continually making themselves appear to be different by using their skin color as a reason to be different, they may be hurting their cause more than it is helping, if it makes people that are trying to treat them the same, think that maybe they don't want to be.
While there is still much racial hatred, there are many whites that are truely past it. These people should not be ignored or alianated.

	01-03-2005 23:51									#54
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quote: Originally posted by rah I watched the academy awards. I'm getting tired of the black thing. Not that they are finally getting some of the recognition and rewards that they've been denied in the past (because I think it's about time), but the whole "i am what I am because I'm black". If you use skin color to define who you are and look differently at those with other skin colors, you're proclaiming that you are different. We're all Americans. That should be enough. I'm not Italian, German or Irish (even though that is my heritage), I"M AMERICAN. We're all Americans. But it's like being black supercedes being an American. My fear is that if they keep saying they're different, some might stop treating them as Americans and treat them as something different. Granted there is still hatred and misstreatment out there, but the goal should be to be treated the same. There are many of us that do treat them the same, but are constantly being bombarded with the message that they're different. I guess it just seeing that while trying to correct historical injustices, they're hampering themselves from the true final goal. No differences. Now, I'm sure there are cynics out there will say, that's it's easy to say what I say since I'm white. That's part of the problem.

Hey its cool to be black. In doing so you get to claim underdogg status. Everyone loves an underdog.

Plus you get to do that oohhh soo funny white guy impersonation.

	01-03-2005 23:53									#55
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Well, these whites might be "beyond it", but the personal feelings of people, however laudable, can be a problem, since if these people are "beyond it", they failt o see that in fact WE as a soceity is NOt beyond it- it becomes an issue they fail to see, and thus can;t even think that it needs to be solved.

There is a difference between "I am not a racist" and "there is no racism". Its great if everyone were trully #1, but until so, people who know themselves to be be racists do a diservice by thinking that there is no racism left.

Again, we agree that some black leaders are counterproductive by blaming whites as individuals today of oppresion when this is not true-that said, as Che pointed out, blacks remain disadvantaged because the injustices of the past have NOT been made up. So whites who are not racists should not at the same time think they can sit back and think- I am not racist, racism isn;t here.

	01-03-2005 23:56									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Hey its cool to be black. In doing so you get to claim underdogg status. Everyone loves an underdog. Plus you get to do that oohhh soo funny white guy impersonation.

It may be cool when you're middle class and get all the same perks as whites. Otherwise, when you're from a crime-ridden inner city, I'm not sure of the coolness of it all.

	01-03-2005 23:57									#57
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Society's racism will only be solved one person at a time. I can teach my children (through example like my father did) and combat it as best as I can when I see it. But I was never able to convice my father-in-law no matter how hard I tried. But he's dead now, so it's time to prepare the next generation.

	02-03-2005 00:08									#58
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quote: Again, we agree that some black leaders are counterproductive by blaming whites as individuals today of oppresion when this is not true-that said, as Che pointed out, blacks remain disadvantaged because the injustices of the past have NOT been made up.

A little bit of observation from the outside: The biggest problem black people are facing isn't racism, or past racism. It's the problems within the community. While it is possible that past racism has caused the "black society" problems in the USA, trying to pull individuals and fix their status is not an effective solution, and the true solution would be to fix the problems the sub-culture has.

The world is full of stories of disadvantaged minorities making it big. 'Asians' in the USA, who despite what many would say, do enjoy the biggest paychecks in the country, jews in europe, and so many many more... They need to change the wrong assumptions in the culture... however Farrakhan is not how you do it.

	02-03-2005 00:13									#59
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, because it's not Islam. It's just Black fascism.

I should have written that better. The important part was that it was Black Fascism, and it also happens to be Islamic. I'm not equating the NOI to the Taliban.

	02-03-2005 01:33									#60
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It happens to have Islam in the name. It's no more Islamic than the National Socialist Workers Party was socialist or workers. Don't be fooled by names. The NOI has some really out there ideas in its religion, including that white people were invented by a big headed scientist named Yakub. It not considered Islam by Islamic clerics.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 02-03-2005 at 01:45