02-03-2005 01:43									#61
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quote: Originally posted by rah We're all Americans. That should be enough. I'm not Italian, German or Irish (even though that is my heritage), I"M AMERICAN. We're all Americans. But it's like being black supercedes being an American.

American's have ethnicities. If you grow up in Bridgeport, it is exceedingly likely that you will think of yourself as Irish (or Chinese) in relations with other Americans. Vis a vis the rest of the world, however, you would think of yourself as an American.

	02-03-2005 02:07									#62
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To a degree yes, but not to the degree I see the blacks do it.

Yes, I consider myself Italian, but I don't take it very seriously. I don't try to make myself part of any exclusive Italian groups. It more like just a small part of my indentity, but where I work, and my hobbies define me more. I'm an IT geek that likes to play golf, war/computer games and read (talk about terrible stereotypes ). Italian never seems to come up.

	02-03-2005 02:18									#63
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quote: The NOI has some really out there ideas in its religion, including that white people were invented by a big headed scientist named Yakub

O_o

	02-03-2005 02:36									#64
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I'm aware that people think of themselves as "black americans" or whatever, but I'm not convinced that such things are entirely good. Knowing your heritage is one thing, but knowing it too much is living in the past. I'm part Huguenot, but I don't demand checks from the Pope; I'm part Welsh, but I ask no deferential treatment from Anglo-Americans. Where's the statute of limitations on keeping score for old grudges?

The dead are dead and buried, and should not be used as a justification for how we treat the living. The problem with Che's "relay race" example is that this race will never end. A few generations from now, every poor white man might look back and whine that his kind were unfairly held back, and he'd be healthy and prosperous if it weren't for society giving the blacks unfair advantage. Already some Klan nuts do that, but that's sort of the point, you can't correct one wrong with another, an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, the sins of the fathers, or any of that rot. We didn't choose to be white, they didn't choose to be black, I've never whipped a man of any color in my entire life, and it's up to all of us to ditch any stupid ideas we might have to the contrary, on our own without any handholding or government penalties or whatever is being proposed in the way of reparations right now.

Racial pride might have its uses, but taken too far it just divides the country into two camps, "us" and "them." But of course, we're supposed to live in perfect unity with Them, people like Farrakhan are just constantly emphasizing the distinction for the sake of strict factual accuracy, right? Just don't forget, there's Us and there's Them, and for innocuous, non-hostile reasons nobody is at liberty to divulge at the moment, it is very important that we not forget it. I think. Help me out here.

	02-03-2005 02:44									#65
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quote: Originally posted by rah Society's racism will only be solved one person at a time. I can teach my children (through example like my father did) and combat it as best as I can when I see it. But I was never able to convice my father-in-law no matter how hard I tried. But he's dead now, so it's time to prepare the next generation.

There is a difference between future racism, and the effects of past racism. No longer being racists does nothing to make up for the effects of past racism, which have not been made up.

Lets take prison rates. Because of past racism, and to some extent current racism, black men are convicted and sent to prison at gretaer rates than whites. That means many of them in many states can no longer vote. This means sinificant segtions of black men are disfranchised. How does you no longer being racist fix the fact that many many more black men aren't allowed to vote than white men?

It doesn't. That is the point- making sure people are not racist tommorrow does nothing to fix the fact we were racist before, and many, not all, but many problems in the black community are the effect of the previous. When people then satrt saying racism is no longer an issue, they are wrong, because its effects are alive with us today, every day.

	02-03-2005 03:02									#66
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The other problem with Che's analogy is that other non-white groups were hobbled as well, but they seem to have caught up.

	02-03-2005 03:15									#67
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Lets take prison rates. Because of past racism, and to some extent current racism, black men are convicted and sent to prison at gretaer rates than whites. That means many of them in many states can no longer vote. This means sinificant segtions of black men are disfranchised. How does you no longer being racist fix the fact that many many more black men aren't allowed to vote than white men?

Shouldn't that be an incentive for the black community as a whole to commit fewer crimes?

	02-03-2005 03:19									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki The other problem with Che's analogy is that other non-white groups were hobbled as well, but they seem to have caught up.

Yeah, American Indians sure have caught up. :roleyes: And Latinos too.

	02-03-2005 03:20									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff Shouldn't that be an incentive for the black community as a whole to commit fewer crimes?

The Black community, as a whole, doesn't committ any crimes.

	02-03-2005 03:22									#70
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The Black community, as a whole, doesn't committ any crimes.

Nope, but apparently the white community does...

	02-03-2005 03:26									#71
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The longer prison terms are because of racism on jurys and some judges. The LAW doesn't call for more sentencing for blacks. Racism in prosecuting and racism in police arrests fuel this cycle. Removing racism in the future will fix that.

Past racism, I doubt I can fix and I truely doubt anybody can. We must look to the future. And I do not want to create future injustices under the guise of fixing the past.

I do support reviewing old cases with new techniques (dna testing) where possible injustices have occured, but only so much can be done. Some of them are actually guilty. While it's not fair that their white counterparts aren't in jail, prosecuting fairly in the future will resolve some of those inequities.

	02-03-2005 03:28									#72
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yeah, American Indians sure have caught up. :roleyes: And Latinos too.

How about Chinese, Japanese or East Indians? I never said they all have, but why have some groups managed to overcome the handicap while others haven't?

	02-03-2005 03:34									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki How about Chinese, Japanese or East Indians? I never said they all have, but why have some groups managed to overcome the handicap while others haven't?

because some cultures value education and learning, while others do not.

I'll come out right now and say the black culture values music and sports over education and learning. They will never get anywhere as a whole doing this.

and yes you can say whites value the same things now days. And that's why they are falling in performance against asians.

	02-03-2005 03:36									#74
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quote: The longer prison terms are because of racism on jurys and some judges. The LAW doesn't call for more sentencing for blacks.

See the disparity in crack vs. powdered cocaine sentencing.

	02-03-2005 03:36									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: The longer prison terms are because of racism on jurys and some judges. The LAW doesn't call for more sentencing for blacks. See the disparity in crack vs. powdered cocaine sentencing.

So you are saying only black people use crack?

	02-03-2005 03:36									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: The longer prison terms are because of racism on jurys and some judges. The LAW doesn't call for more sentencing for blacks. See the disparity in crack vs. powdered cocaine sentencing.

Is that a race thing or a class thing?

	02-03-2005 03:37									#77
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Probably both (edit: to clarify, the disparity in sentences is probably due to both factors).

	02-03-2005 03:38									#78
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One of the reasons blacks are stuck in a rut is that if you are a successful black you are ostracized for being "too white".

	02-03-2005 03:38									#79
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Poor Whitey. What will become of him?

	02-03-2005 03:42									#80
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quote: Originally posted by rah GePap, while you bring up a lot of valid points, none of them have anything to do with what I said. I know there are current inequities, I don't deny it. I'm just saying that by continually making themselves appear to be different by using their skin color as a reason to be different, they may be hurting their cause more than it is helping, if it makes people that are trying to treat them the same, think that maybe they don't want to be. While there is still much racial hatred, there are many whites that are truely past it. These people should not be ignored or alianated.

I view this as a receding problem. As long as blacks believe they are not being discriminated against, they will not try to accentuate the differences that exist.

Of course, some might continue down that path. My brother thinks he's got some special connection to Germany because part of the family heritage is German from 170 years ago.

	02-03-2005 03:43									#81
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quote: So you are saying only black people use crack?

I'm saying that black people are more likely to use crack rather than powdered cocaine. Yeah I know, a crazy concept that - probabilities.

	02-03-2005 03:44									#82
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I view this as a receding problem. As long as blacks believe they are not being discriminated against, they will not try to accentuate the differences that exist. Of course, some might continue down that path. My brother thinks he's got some special connection to Germany because part of the family heritage is German from 170 years ago.

hehe, I'm part native american, that's why I'm against you capitalists polluting my land

actually I'm an environmentalist for other reasons.

	02-03-2005 03:51									#83
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Poll taxes, literacy tests, and grandfather clauses didn't explicitly disenfranchise blacks. In fact, these laws were intended to, and had the effect of, disenfranchising poor whites as well. I suppose that means that there was no hint of racism in those laws.

	02-03-2005 04:14									#84
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When people talk about different penalties for crack, do these different penalties exceed even the natural considerations for crack as more intense, more short-lived, and more quickly addictive than garden-variety coke? Just for those I would consider crack more worthy of punishment.

While latinos and native americans are still discriminated against, they don't have anywhere near the cultural edginess that blacks and whites have going on. It's a lot more common for a hispanic person to just be though of as a person and get by, or fail to get by, on their own merits, without the constant awareness of differences that comes with black people. J. Lo and Salma Hayek can be thought of as just hot chicks in general, and nobody gives a rat's rear what their ethnicity is, at least around here in MD; you will never hear Halle Berry described as anything but "a talented black actress," kind of like senators have to refer to each other as "my distinguished colleague." It's not precisely racism, just this constant awareness that there's an old wound we're touching whenever there's black-white interaction, and I think that the militant nature of groups like NoI probably contributes at least a little bit to that atmosphere. Part of what made Martin Luther King so appealing, at least to me, is that he wasn't hung up on race. He didn't have a dream that one day black children would walk around in Kente cloth and spout facts about Benjamin Banneker, though I suppose he wouldn't have objected to that in principle, he had a dream that one day we could just be together and forget what race we are, as though it doesn't even exist. That's real equality.

	02-03-2005 04:16									#85
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The mandatory minimums that Congress passed imposes a 100-times harsher penalty for crack. Are you trying to argue that crack is 100 times worse than powder cocaine?

	02-03-2005 04:18									#86
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yeah, American Indians sure have caught up. :roleyes: And Latinos too.

The Jews have.

	02-03-2005 04:19									#87
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I wonder how the attitudes between blacks in America and blacks in Africa would differ.

	02-03-2005 04:34									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Elok you will never hear Halle Berry described as anything but "a talented black actress,

This is a bit off-topic, but I wonder why Halle is considered a "black actress" She is half black, half white. Why isn't she referred to as bi-racial? Afterall, she's just as white as she is black. If she can legitimately be called black, couldn't she just as legitimately be called white?

	02-03-2005 04:37									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear The Jews have.

Jew were oppressed in the United States? When did this happen?

	02-03-2005 04:43									#90
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I think a fairer comparison would be crack vs. Meth sentencing (they should be similiar but I doubt they are). Both are used by the poorer groups of their respective race. Where as coke is waste of money and more likely to be used by wealthier users, hence the difference in sentencing. It's also similar to comparing opium to heroin sentencing, the degrees are closer to morphine - heroin, but morphine is still used medicinally hence a lighter sentence IIRC. Plus If I were living in the inner cities, I would support strict sentencing for crack dealers, and could care less about coke dealers.

(aside)
I would like to say though the moderate blacks in congress are the ones the Democratic party should be listening to, Ford and Obama spring to mind. Even Al Sharpton has more appeal to me than a Hillary Clinton. Who despite whatever repositioning she tries is already poisoned. I hope Dean sabotages her bid for the Presidency.