02-03-2005 04:46									#91
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Azrael I had always considered that Jews were both a religion and a 'race' (or group of closely related ethnicities).

Jewishness must be more than a religion or culture. 1After all there are/have been many Jewish atheists who are still accepted as Jewish. So culture is a component?

2Yet there were many nearly fully assimilated Jews killed by the nazis who were not culturally OR religiously jewish, i.e. celebrated non jewish holdiays, ate the the forbidden foods, etc...and yet they have been claimed as jewish because of their mothers and fathers?

3the difficulties occasionally involved in impure jews, especially from russia, marrying cohanim. I've read a few times that the religious court 'certifies' the spouses jewishness through a procedure that seems awfully based around ancestry and blood than religious beliefs or cultural practices.

4the difficulties surrounding so-called nonwhite jews and sephardis, at least in the past (I don't know nowadays...?) If they practice traditonal jewish cultural practices, and religious beliefs, what is this mysterious barrier and difficulty they face to being considered jews? And yes I know about the extreme cases like those guys from india who probably aren't jews, but the africans seem like a problem for the 'non-racial' theory.

Of course, judaism does allow converts although it's not encouraged...but these converts seem to me to be jews by religion only, they don't seem to be as accepted as Real Jews as even atheists and the completely secular are if they are jewish by 'pure' ancestry.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there seems to me to be three Judaisms: a racial/ethnic b cultural c religious and these three intertwine.

	02-03-2005 05:48									#92
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I'll say the State of Black America has improved when I see it. There is still a long way to go.

	02-03-2005 05:55									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Part of what made Martin Luther King so appealing, at least to me, is that he wasn't hung up on race. He didn't have a dream that one day black children would walk around in Kente cloth and spout facts about Benjamin Banneker, though I suppose he wouldn't have objected to that in principle, he had a dream that one day we could just be together and forget what race we are, as though it doesn't even exist. That's real equality.

Elok believes in MLK Jr.'s vision of equality.

	02-03-2005 19:32									#94
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I didn't know there was that great of a disparity in sentences...beats me.

I've never heard of any anti-Jew pogroms in America or anything, but there have been plenty of attacks on the Irish. No Irish need apply, etc. Today there are still a few bigots hiding in the cracks, but by and large nobody cares, and the problem has essentially solved itself. Once civil rights have been established and defended for a group, it's only a matter of time before it integrates itself into society, provided people don't keep drawing attention to it. Says I.

My dad has a theory that racism in America is actually bound to wither away on its own just due to the number of interracial marriages going on. Hopefully he's right, and someday nobody will even remember what race he/she is, and we can all just be people. We can remember and honor past cultures as just a sign of the variety of human experience, not knowing or caring if their legacy belongs to us or to our neighbors. Sounds good to me.

	02-03-2005 19:48									#95
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I don't think there is any prejudice of Irish. There was in our history prejudice against eastern europeans, but I don't think much exists anymore.

	02-03-2005 20:53									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't think there is any prejudice of Irish. There was in our history prejudice against eastern europeans, but I don't think much exists anymore.

Depends on where you live. Pepole who live in the Irish ghettos are still looked down on. Same with Slavs.

	02-03-2005 20:57									#97
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The very notion of "white" shows how "blacks" are different from all other groups- the Irish, Italians, and Jews were all heavily discriminated because of their different religions, but in the end, because they were NOT BLACK, aka "white", well, they could be integrated. Them darkies, well, nope.

White in America is a a negation of blackness.

Also note how in the US there is not much of a continuum. In racist Latin America, people's shade of skin is what matter, not what % of you "blood" is white or black. Here in the US, its "blood" that matters- making it an even deeper difference.

And of course, in the end, Latinos and Jews had nothing even remotely similar to the suffering of African Americans in the US, and for most of its history did not make a significant portion of the population either, a large difference from the condition of blacks. Ditto for Asians and newer immigrant groups.

As for Native Americans, they have sure as hell NOT come anywhere close to whites. I think indians as a whole would be the worst group off if it were not for puritanical measures against gambling and the Indians deft handling of American hypocrasy over gambling. Otherwise, Indian poverty rates would still be the greatest of any group.

	02-03-2005 21:01									#98
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The very notion of "white" shows how "blacks" are different from all other groups- the Irish, Italians, and Jews were all heavily discriminated because of their different religions, but in the end, because they were NOT BLACK, aka "white", well, they could be integrated. Them darkies, well, nope.

The fact is that blacks are being integrated, and are better off now than they have ever been. Though things aren't perfect, they are improving. I think that militant, racist groups like the NOI impede the progress of blacks, because they make whites react with defensive racism.

	02-03-2005 21:08									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff The fact is that blacks are being integrated, and are better off now than they have ever been.

That's not true. White flight continues to occur. And Black poverty rates are higher today than they were forty years ago.

GePap is incorrect on the whiteness of Italians and the Irish. When we first came to America, we were not considered white. We had to fight and struggle to be considered white. The absurdity of race is America is that it had little to do with what you looked like. Chinese were legally considered Black in California in the 19th Century, while Mexicans were legally Indians.

	02-03-2005 21:11									#100
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Depends on where you live. Pepole who live in the Irish ghettos are still looked down on. Same with Slavs.

Everyone who lives in a ghetto is looked down on even if they are WASPs, but I guess the Irish were discriminated agianst for being Catholic. You just don't hear about it. I'm about half Irish, but since I'm not Catholic I've never been discrminated against for it.

	02-03-2005 21:17									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff The fact is that blacks are being integrated, and are better off now than they have ever been. Though things aren't perfect, they are improving. I think that militant, racist groups like the NOI impede the progress of blacks, because they make whites react with defensive racism.

Blacks as a group never got respect until some of them became militant. There is no reason for a bigot to respect the people he hates until those people start defending themselves.

	02-03-2005 21:22									#102
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's not true. White flight continues to occur.

From my experience this is more of a class thng than a race thing. In the surburban sprawl in Northern Va, the middle and upper classes, regardless of race, are steadily moving away from the city. Upper Middle class blacks live amongst upper middle class whites. Lower classes, regardless of race, are replacing those people closer to the city. This includes not only blacks, but Hispanics, Asians, and lower class whites. You may look at it and see racism; I look at it and see class movement.

quote: And Black poverty rates are higher today than they were forty years ago.

By what measures? Are they proportionally worse off than Hispanics, Whites, Asians or comprable economic class?

quote: The absurdity of race is America is that it had little to do with what you looked like. Chinese were legally considered Black in California in the 19th Century, while Mexicans were legally Indians.

The Chinese thing doesn't make sense, but I can understand the Mexican thing. It probably relates to their Aztec anscestry.

	02-03-2005 21:30									#103
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Mexicans had the same legal status as Whites in California. They did have their land taken away though because Spanish and Mexican law was different from English law in that there were no written deeds for land, so Whites just squated on their land and the Mexicans couldn't do anything.

	02-03-2005 21:30									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Blacks as a group never got respect until some of them became militant. There is no reason for a bigot to respect the people he hates until those people start defending themselves.

I disagree with that assessment. Militant behavior draws attention to the problem but most times results in a discreditting of the central purpose. Militant behavior followed with the like of organized peaceful protest ala MLK bring not only attention but credibility to the key issues.

It was very key that during the womens suffrage movement as an example that it required two distinctly different and oft times opposed factions to make it happen. The militant youthful faction as well as the more staid feminists working the problem from the inside. Without one, the other would not have made the change happen.

	02-03-2005 21:34									#105
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Ogie,

I think we both agree that oppressed people can't just complain about their oppression. They need to take action. Action makes people see the problems. Otherwise, they continue to believe that there is no oppression or that it is really better to oppress people because things work better that way for everyone.

	02-03-2005 21:50									#106
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quote: I disagree with that assessment. Militant behavior draws attention to the problem but most times results in a discreditting of the central purpose. Militant behavior followed with the like of organized peaceful protest ala MLK bring not only attention but credibility to the key issues.

I've always felt that was the way to do it. You have riots and a charismatic leader who is divorced from the riots and you'll get results. One without the other you probably won't get very far.

Economically the last 25 years haven't been kind to the lower classes, or as they like to be referred to 'The lower middle class'. While the rich were trickling down, they forgot to trickle down more than inflation.

	02-03-2005 23:18									#107
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"From my experience this is more of a class thng than a race thing."

Nail meet head!

The Italians became 'white' the moment they moved out of the ghetto, ditto the other racial groups.

Ever notice how non-hardcore racists treat successful blacks? They're 'as good as white', especially rich educated blacks from places like bahamas.

'White' is the wealthy's way of saying 'people like us'.
'Black' is the wealthy code word for poor, uneducated smelly, not us people.

All discrimination, is, in the end, class discrimination.

	02-03-2005 23:23									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker 'White' is the wealthy's way of saying 'people like us'. 'Black' is the wealthy code word for poor, uneducated smelly, not us people.

There's also a stigma against poor rural whites (like me). We're the ignorant white trash hicks, and its perfectly acceptable to hold us in disdain. I find that I can identify with poorer, woking class blacks better than with upper middle class whites.

	03-03-2005 07:26									#109
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by chegitz guevara [/SIZE GePap is incorrect on the whiteness of Italians and the Irish. When we first came to America, we were not considered white. We had to fight and struggle to be considered white.

You misunderstand my point- Italians and the Irish COULD become 'white', and did so within a century of arriving in mass.

Blacks, for more than obvious reasons, could NEVER be white. The road open to the Catholic Irish and Italians was not open to fellow protestant Blacks, ever.