02-03-2005 04:06									#91
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT If by "artistic" you mean "smarmingly self-aware of its own pretentious nature", then I'll agree.

Po-TAY-to, Po-TAH-to

	02-03-2005 08:28									#93
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Spoilers for Spider Man II ahead.

quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Here's the defense: Spider-Man II, while a GREAT movie, is not Academy Award material. First, the plot, while great for a comic book adaptation, is not of the quality that many Best Pictures are. I could go into it further, but I'll just say: "I'm Spider-Man...no, I'm not...oh wait, I am", is not a very good storyline for anything but a comic book sequel. Next, the acting was good, but at times melodramatic. Also, the ending was contrived. My big question: Doc Ock suddenly changes and sees good: WHY?! The ending was one of the most "Deus ex Machina" that I've seen. It was one of my favorite movies this year. It did win Special FX, which it deserved. Artistically, however, (and that's what Academy Awards are given for: art, not entertainment), it doesn't hold a candle to those nominated.

First, your specific points. Those kind of one-line putdowns of a section of the plot are fun, but you can really do that to most plotlines that aren't super convoluted. Silence of the Lambs: "I need the help of the crazy guy! But he's creepy! But I need his help! But he's creepy! But..." Hamlet: "I'm gonna get revenge! No, wait, I'm going to stand around and do nothing! But I'm going to tell myself that I really mean it this time, and will get revenge! And do nothing again! Okay, come on, I really want to go get some revenge now!"

As for Doc Ock, he started out good. The whole fusion thing was a bit of temporary insanity if you will- you can see the conversation that he was having with his AI buddy, and can intuit the AI's arguments pretty well. "The real crime would be to not finish the work?" He was just going on an insane trip of "the ends justify the means" to try and complete his life's work. But noble goals like that tend to make it fairly easy to get "redeemed" if you will, and have the fundamentally good person notice that their actions aren't that good. To put things another way, sure, sadistically insane villains will keep on going to the end no matter what happens. Dr. Octopus was the nobly insane villain with good goals, and those type will stop their evil as soon as things become clear. Heck, he saw that the rebuilt version was going to destroy half the city, and that was never his goal- he wasn't some pscyho TRYING to blow up the city.

As for whether it artistically holds a candle to those nominated for Best Picture, I can't say, having seen none of them. I will say that I have a rather negative impression of Finding Neverland- it looked like one of those cheerfully revisionist histories where we impose 21st century values on 1900. But I'd really have to see the movie.

That said, Spider Man II was an arstically valid movie IMHO. Take the little speech that Aunt May gives Peter a bit more than halfway through, in some ways the core of the movie despite seeming preachiness. We're somewhat used to the concept of sacrifice, but sacrificing our dreams for others? That's pretty extreme, and yet it's what people do and have done for some time. In some ways that's even trickier than merely risking your life. There, you can at least hope that you'll survive your time in the corps or whatever, then return to a normal life. That seems fairly doubtful for poor Spiderman. If you throw away the beginning & end of the movie, that middle section that actually dealt with what it meant to be Spiderman and what it meant to be Peter Parker is sufficiently artsy to put SM2 in the running for Best Picture.

	02-03-2005 09:31									#94
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Three points -

Million Dollar Baby was the last of the nominated flicks I saw. I really didn't think I'd like a woman boxer movie. (mudwrestling, maybe)

The performances were amazing. The story was amazing. There was never a dull moment. Extremely minor characters were writed/ directed and portraid perfectly - eg. the skinny guy at the gym descibed as "all heart" or the manager of the German boxing champ.

Its rare when a minor character (Freeman) gets a scene that leaves the audience cheering. Everything in the movie worked. And as others have stated before - Hollywood loves Eastwood, and for good reason.

I'm not even slightly surprised it picked up the awards it did.

As for Ray, about a year ago I saw the trailer for Ray. After seeing the trailer, I told the people I was with, "Foxx will win an Oscar for that."

If Born into Brothels shows up in your town - see it !

	02-03-2005 09:37									#95
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Hollywood doesn't love Eastwood; they fear him. He'd kick the living **** out of any liberal Hollywood ***** who dared to cross him and they know it.

	02-03-2005 10:59									#96
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quote: The year that Star Wars set all sorts of box office records and was a popular phenomenon without precedent, the Academy gave the best picture oscar to Annie Hall, an almost mediocre Woody Allen film.

I love Star Wars, I own the DVDs of Ep IV, V, and VI. But to say it was a better film than Annie Hall is just being ignorant. Annie Hall was an incredible film, with great acting, a wonderful story, sharp and witty dialog, and fabulous directing. Annie Hall deserved the Oscar, even though I've seen Star Wars probably 20 times more than I've seen Annie Hall. Annie Hall was just a better film.

quote: That said, Spider Man II was an arstically valid movie IMHO.

Serious? I may understand the point if it was nominated for a Golden Globe, at the LEAST, but not even that. I mean great effects yeah, but cookie-cutter superhero story (which makes it fun, yeah), nothing special acting, average dialog... artistically as valid as the nominated films? Nahh..

quote: Hollywood doesn't love Eastwood; they fear him

Dirty ****ing Harry!

	02-03-2005 14:40									#97
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT If by "artistic" you mean "smarmingly self-aware of its own pretentious nature", then I'll agree.

It wasn't pretentious. It did something difficult, which was to make two scumbags human and perhaps even likeable without using the device of surrounding them with even scummier characters. The screenplay was great (and deserved its academy award) and the acting was nuanced and fit the bill perfectly.

	02-03-2005 14:44									#98
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Oh, and the Academy desperately needs to add an award for "Best non-Dramatic Film" so that great comedies can get the sort of recognition that they deserve. Lost in Translation and Sideways are both films that said something interesting and true without a lot of scenery chewing / life and death drama. Perhaps an action category as well would be appropriate.

	02-03-2005 18:40									#99
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I like that idea, Sikander, except that creating such an award ghettoizes those genres. You end up with...

Best Movie
---------------
Best Explosions
Best Laughs
Best SciFi

The other problem is that you start getting a Grammy-like proliferation of categories.

The Academy will say that it cheapens the Oscar, so there's no chance of it happening.

	02-03-2005 19:13									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander It wasn't pretentious. It did something difficult, which was to make two scumbags human and perhaps even likeable without using the device of surrounding them with even scummier characters. The screenplay was great (and deserved its academy award) and the acting was nuanced and fit the bill perfectly.

It was pretentious. And self-aware of how pretentious it was being.

	02-03-2005 20:39									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Hollywood doesn't love Eastwood; they fear him. He'd kick the living **** out of any liberal Hollywood ***** who dared to cross him and they know it.

Riiight....

Thats why the Medveds and Limbaughs have gone on an anti-Clint crusade for his film...

	02-03-2005 21:13									#102
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Hollywood = Limbaugh???

Perhaps one could stretch and say Medved as he is a bonafide film critic but certanly not Limbaugh as being representative of hollywood establishment types.

	03-03-2005 07:30									#103
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HELLO!

The only people currently "afraid" of Clint are morons like Medved and Limbaugh, not "Hollywood liberals" like Drake babbles on.

	03-03-2005 08:47									#104
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Yeah, GePap wins this one. The right-wingers were the ones pissed at Clint now, not the lefties.

	03-03-2005 10:16									#105
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You guys are so naive. Hollywood is full of actors, for christ's sake. They can easily act all loving whilst remaining terrified of Clint to their very core.

quote: Yeah, GePap wins

You should know better than this, Imran...

	03-03-2005 10:17									#106
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But he won... so you should know better

	03-03-2005 10:19									#107
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I know that GePap has never and will never get the best of me. He's so far beneath me that he's been reduced to posting blatantly sarcastic remarks of mine in his signature in the hope that newbies will think that he got me once...

	03-03-2005 11:30									#108
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Never the best of you, Potemkin Village? Oh, I forgot, that little name had you crying like a little baby to Ming....

	03-03-2005 11:32									#109
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It did? Funny, I don't remember that...

Good comeback, BTW.

	03-03-2005 11:35									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten It did? Funny, I don't remember that...

Must be whatever you smoke finally having some effect. Better get that checked out.

	03-03-2005 11:37									#111
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I don't smoke...