03-05-2005 06:55									#271
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Not really. He's grateful for small mercies these days.

	03-05-2005 13:57									#272
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quote: Methinks our Havak may have a wee bit of a hangover ...

Guilty. Courvoisier in the hip flask.

As you might imagine I loved seeing Dayglo and his boys made to look ordinary. Even if it is frustrating Tigers could not play like that the week before. There was a different level of intensity to the game at Walkers – less nerves and more focus. Having said that Toulouse are a far better outfit than Wasps anyway IMHO.

Dayglo and Dawson badgered the ref all game – but I will give Lawrence a little respect as he clapped Henry Tuilagi as he was taken of with a broken leg and he and his squad remained on the pitch for the whole 30 minute ‘farewell to Jonno, Backy and Wellsy’ circus at the end.

On which note – Martin just about managed to hold it together on the microphone – but only just.

quote: And one of them managed to burn himself. We Frenchmen were saying to each others that these rosbiffs are decidedly silly.

Yes I have seen some very nasty burns from it. I’m happy to stick with the drinking games myself – then again I have seen broken limbs occur in some of those too. In essence you are totally right – rosbiff rugger players are decidedly silly.

quote: One flanker didn't do the last part, and ended the day with more alcohol than blood in the veins, and a really nice headache on the day after.

By purging it you would have been on a very a serious charge with most tours I have been on. As sensible as it was.

quote: We allow minor flaws in a leader, so that's all right.

How do you feel about major flaws?

quote: Obviously an indictment of the Tories' impotence and incompetence.

Howard has less credibility than Blair – and it’s killing him. I think I pointed out two of his previous roles in government – Local Government minister under Thatcher and Home Secretary under Major. In both posts he over saw some hugely unpopular legislation (most notably the Poll tax). No one who remembers him in Government will ever easily trust him or what he says – a real problem if you want to be PM.

quote: If either the Brits or the Australians had (perish the thought) lost any troops in numbers, I think Blair and (our) Howard might be far less comfortable than they are.

Interesting timing – a young Coldstream guard was killed over the weekend and his widow has publicly gone for Blair’s jugular (on a day where Labours poll lead increased slightly!). He is the 87th casualty there (not all battle casualties) but with only 8000 personnel there at any point I would imagine our percentage must be similar to US forces.

Iraq is an issue that refuses to go away – I suspect it will influence things on Thursday. I have to say I still expect Blair to be returned with a reduced majority.

quote: I suspect that the Brit voting population is, on the whole, with some obvious exceptions, a bit more sophisticated. And comfortable with their lot, to boot.

I’d like to think you are right – but I fear my countrymen have a normally suppressed streak of Xenophobia a mile wide. It’s more fertile ground for the Tories than calling Blair a liar I think – most people I have spoken to find that reeks of hypocrisy from ‘Poll tax is fair’ Howard.

quote: but I don't think anyone would want to see it before each and every game ...

I never want to see it – but I dislike the fact they are prevented from doing it.

quote: Get your act together and make up your own haka you lazy plonker and stop taking the easy way out trying to abolish ours!

Abolish? Well it probably wouldn’t actually make me cry if that unhappy event were to come to pass, but what I actually want is for it’s protected status to be removed. NZ and the rest of North Auckland shouldn’t be the only ones allowed pre-match indulgences and no one else should be legislated to have to stand watching something they don’t necessarily want to.

And no the all whites don’t have a haka – as you are aware most Pommy rugger traditions are around the social aspects of the game.

Mind you I don’t think I’ll find another sport thanks – my own club was founded before anyone had pulled on the black (or white) shirt after all.

quote: Perhaps you could explain his thinking to me, Havak.

We have to put it down to the emotions of the day if we wish to be charitable. Evans sometimes runs his mouth off like this. Putting aside the arguments for relegation the simple fact is all clubs knew that there would be relegation at the start of the season. ERP voted on and accepted that. Bleating now is absolutely useless.

All of this on the back of the fact that the late Sale try that relegated them kept Saints up (which was not my prefered result!).

And the ‘current form’ comment is plain daft I agree. Quins lost their last two games = how can they be ‘on form’?

I think the bottom line is that Worcester deserved to stay up on their on field showings. Only Tigers stuffed them twice and they took some big scalps (wasps). They fully vindicated the idea of promotion for me – and were a more exciting side to watch than either Quins or Irish (who I think set the record for the least number of tries scored in the season).

There are clubs who pitch for a closed shop every year – Quins were one, Newcastle are another and Saracens have been known to as have Northampton. Strangely all of them have been almost constantly involved at the bottom. Sarries did rather better this year – and have been strangely quiet on the issue. Tigers fans have always joked that once those four are all relegated we should do it so they can never come back in – and see what they say about it then.

I’ve mentioned before that the English are on the whole very keen on relegation and promotion. It’s that spirit of rewarding the little guy and keeping big underperformers from getting complacent.

Super 12 is a different beast – it was assembled from scratch even if the NZ franchises were assembled on top of existing clubs. And to be honest I don't think it helps that the poorer Bok and Kiwi franchises know they are safe for another round of cash however they do on the field?

In England the clubs have long histories and the idea of arbitrarily saying “no one else may join the current 12” just is not very popular. There are big names from years back in the lower leagues – witness Bristol returning this year.

I suspect ring fencing will arrive at some point (too many vested interests in the game now) - and knowing my luck just after Tigers get relegated - but I'll argue against it to the end.

	04-05-2005 10:53									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Interesting timing – a young Coldstream guard was killed over the weekend and his widow has publicly gone for Blair’s jugular (on a day where Labours poll lead increased slightly!). He is the 87th casualty there (not all battle casualties) but with only 8000 personnel there at any point I would imagine our percentage must be similar to US forces. Iraq is an issue that refuses to go away – I suspect it will influence things on Thursday. I have to say I still expect Blair to be returned with a reduced majority.

Our first national - an engineer working over there - has just been kidnapped. It had to happen.

I'd've thought the ones to gain from any backlash against Blair and the war would be the Lib Dems or whatever they're called these days? They seem to be much better organised than our so-called alternative parties who self-destruct at the drop of a hint of an internal power struggle.

quote: We have to put it down to the emotions of the day if we wish to be charitable. Evans sometimes runs his mouth off like this. Putting aside the arguments for relegation the simple fact is all clubs knew that there would be relegation at the start of the season. ERP voted on and accepted that. Bleating now is absolutely useless.

After I posed those questions, I found an article on the BBC site about him. He's a squire-type? And off-loaded some talented players without replacing them, while spending a sh*tload on the ground?

quote: I’ve mentioned before that the English are on the whole very keen on relegation and promotion. It’s that spirit of rewarding the little guy and keeping big underperformers from getting complacent.

It's a perfectly legitimate and very good system - stimulating competition, warding off complacency - providing there's enough player and managerial talent to support it. The downside is a team rising and falling again almost immediately. As happens in s*****.

quote: Super 12 is a different beast – it was assembled from scratch even if the NZ franchises were assembled on top of existing clubs. And to be honest I don't think it helps that the poorer Bok and Kiwi franchises know they are safe for another round of cash however they do on the field?

It's one of the downsides of S12. There are perennial easybeats. I've never been certain of the talent pool needed to man 14 teams. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

quote: I suspect ring fencing will arrive at some point (too many vested interests in the game now) - and knowing my luck just after Tigers get relegated - but I'll argue against it to the end.

As you should. It just makes for an elitist group.

	04-05-2005 13:10									#274
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Has the Haka been banned yet?

quote: They seem to be much better organised than our so-called alternative parties who self-destruct at the drop of a hint of an internal power struggle.

They are well organised, disciplined and cohesive beyond the dream of the Tories right now and their policies are aimed directly at disenchanted Labour voters. They are also the only major party standing on an anti-war platform. And yet that doubt remains in the public consciousness – they are habitual trend followers and could easily swing rapidly to the right if they sense a prevailing wind that way. There’s a question mark over trusting them for me.

A Times/Populus tracker poll published yesterday puts Labour on 41%, the Conservatives on 27% and the Lib Dems on 23%. This would return another landslide for President Blair. The reality is this is unlikely to be mapped to all the key marginals – but it still seems likely we will have four more years of Tony with a comfortable majority. I’ll be voting before work tomorrow so I had better get my thinking cap on.

Sorry to hear about the hostage – their chances are not good. I do not understand why civilians are still going there to be honest – you couldn’t pay me enough to consider it.

quote: He's a squire-type? And off-loaded some talented players without replacing them, while spending a sh*tload on the ground?

It’s an accusation that has been levelled at him because of the way he behaves – autocratically and gathering power unto himself. He joined the club in a management role but gathered power until he was made Chief Executive and then took over the coaching as well. He certainly pushed development of the ground over developing the squad. And he did let players go last June that have done very well elsewhere – the two that have done best would be Pat Sanderson (now skipper of Worcester) and Scott Bemand (at Tigers understudying Ellis). Bemand was told by Evans he was not good enough for the top flight but whoever nurtured him at Tigers proved that wrong – he is sufficiently good to keep Ellis on his toes (and a lot better than So'oialo who wore the nine shirt for Quins this season).

quote: The downside is a team rising and falling again almost immediately. As happens in s*****.

And this will happen again I am sure. I think Bristol might make the transition successfully though.

quote: I've never been certain of the talent pool needed to man 14 teams. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

It would be disastrous for the tournament if the current four annual easy-beats (perming any four from eight on a rolling basis) simply grows to six. Perth seem to be recruiting well however – though the worry there is that it may lower the achievement of all the Aussie franchises?

Looking at the table I am left wondering who thought the Boks could stand another franchise? And aren’t both Hurricanes and Highlanders in very unfamiliar territory above the Blues? I thought Hurricanes in particular liked to help a Bok side hold up the table most years?

quote: As you should. It just makes for an elitist group.

True. And frighteningly one with Rob Andrew on the inside.

Did Tamerlin ever appear to laud his team? You would think he could stop being distracted for just five minutes?

	04-05-2005 13:12									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Has the Haka been banned yet?

[Edit: Here's an idea for you. If the English can't think up an alternative on their own perhaps one should be provided for them? If the tea party is out and the Aussies already have their little singalong then perhaps a short rendition of the comedic stylings of Lawrence Dallaglio? I doubt English rugby would ever be the same again ... ]

	04-05-2005 14:14									#276
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'Short' is definitely the operative word there!

How about the greatest hits on Lawrence being played directly before each match?

	04-05-2005 15:50									#277
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Mmm... Considering some of the pre match dances I saw in France, I'm not sure they would be deemed politically correct.

You've caught the Finbar "Mmm" habit!

	04-05-2005 18:18									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Havak And yet that doubt remains in the public consciousness – they are habitual trend followers and could easily swing rapidly to the right if they sense a prevailing wind that way. There’s a question mark over trusting them for me.

Yes, that's always a problem with some of those alternatives who sniff the wind for what's popular. Voters see through them.

quote: I’ll be voting before work tomorrow so I had better get my thinking cap on.

He said, tucking his Tory blue rosette in his desk drawer.

quote: Sorry to hear about the hostage – their chances are not good. I do not understand why civilians are still going there to be honest – you couldn’t pay me enough to consider it.

They see it differently. They think the oodles of money to be made warrants the risk. Our hostage apparently said only recently that he hoped to make his money and get out in one piece.

So how long will Mr Evans stay at Quins? Will he be pushed? Or does he own too much of the place?

quote: It would be disastrous for the tournament if the current four annual easy-beats (perming any four from eight on a rolling basis) simply grows to six. Perth seem to be recruiting well however – though the worry there is that it may lower the achievement of all the Aussie franchises?

Not to any real degree. They've only really snaffled two big guns - Nathan Sharp from Reds and #10 Lachie McKay from Waratahs. Reds have at least one young, very highly promising lock already in the team. Sharp's experience will be a huge loss in a young team, but his skill will be replaced. McKay, in the long term, is probably the bigger loss for his potential. He was going to be the answer to NSW's age-old #10 problem. Brendan Cannon is towards the end of his career. If they end up with Henjak and Rathbone, though, the Brumbies will have suffered.

Apart from that, the signings are mainly fringe players. Though, in the case of the Reds fringe hooker they've signed, it's said by some good judges that he's the best hooker in Queensland by a mile and should have been a fixture in the team. An indictment of the current coach, and the reason why he left for Perth.

quote: Looking at the table I am left wondering who thought the Boks could stand another franchise? And aren’t both Hurricanes and Highlanders in very unfamiliar territory above the Blues? I thought Hurricanes in particular liked to help a Bok side hold up the table most years?

No, Hurricanes have had a good couple of seasons. Either last year, or maybe the year before, they made the finals. Wonderful midfield and very good out wide. Their pack isn't as good as it was and lets them down. The Highlanders are the big surprise this year. They lost a lot of players and were expected to fail but they've been very strong. Probably playing above themselves but they have the talent to finish mid-table. The Blues are all over the place this season like the proverbial mad woman's breakfast. Winning well, then getting thumped. With the talent in that team, I don't know what's going on.

The Boks' extra franchise is the scary thing. The Sharks, Cats, and, since Krige's departure, the Stormers, can be embarrassingly inept. If there any spare, unsigned, talented players over there, you'd reckon one of the existing franchises would have grabbed them. They got the extra franchise because we wanted one. It was politics. And I fear it will come back and bite the competition.

quote: Did Tamerlin ever appear to laud his team? You would think he could stop being distracted for just five minutes?

Nuh. Whatever's distracting him, it's obviously mighty powerful!

	04-05-2005 19:17									#279
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I’d like to think you are right – but I fear my countrymen have a normally suppressed streak of Xenophobia a mile wide. It’s more fertile ground for the Tories than calling Blair a liar I think – most people I have spoken to find that reeks of hypocrisy from ‘Poll tax is fair’ Howard.

I presume you're referring to the immigration issue? The Tories probably can't be trusted any more than Labour to fix that problem. I presume it's a similar situation to here in the US - one party loves cheap 3rd-world labour (Republicans) and the other party hopes to make voters out of illegal aliens (Democrats).

To be honest I think a modest helping of xenophobia is a good thing. It's not like Britain has nothing to fear from outsiders. I hear there are entire neighbourhoods that are now no-go areas for whites. If you keep letting floods of non-whites in you'll be well on the way to a US-style racial spoils system (racial preferences).

Don't get me wrong, I think it's good to have a bit of ethnic diversity, but there's good diversity and bad diversity. Here in the US they seem to think any old diversity will do, even if it means importing groups of people who have no idea of how to live in a western society. Also, I think it's in the interests of any country to maintain an ethnic majority. I would never want to live in a country that was majority non-white, simply because racism is inherent in everyone and I don't want to be racially discriminated against. It's bad enough having white liberals promote racial preferences for other races, so I shudder to think what it would be like if other races were in charge.

Ok, go ahead and lambast me for being racist now.

	04-05-2005 20:30									#280
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Why would I do that? You make some very interesting points and had I more time I would address them in detail – but with apologies to yourself and Finbar I will have to pick things up tomorrow.

I am happy to give my take on one thing Finbar suggested. Never a blue rosette – not ever. I know and value my roots as working class.

	04-05-2005 21:55									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Did Tamerlin ever appear to laud his team? You would think he could stop being distracted for just five minutes?

No chance!

	04-05-2005 22:54									#282
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Havak, I can try to force him to sit in front of a computer on next week end when I go to Toulouse (if I can find him between a rugby match and a third half-time).

	05-05-2005 05:28									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I am happy to give my take on one thing Finbar suggested. Never a blue rosette – not ever. I know and value my roots as working class.

A predilection for Pork Pies does not a Working Class Lad make!

	05-05-2005 05:31									#284
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin No chance!

He drops in to tease us and disappears again! In fact, I know where he's been. That brand new, oversized, Toulouse-bred Airbus had its maiden flight recently. He was sitting up in first class looking down on the rest of us!

	05-05-2005 07:17									#285
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I remember thinking exactly the same thing a few nights ago during the news clip showing the new jet.

I was looking very closely to try and catch Tamerlin waving from one of the windows. Foolish I know, he was undoubtably in the bar/casino.

	05-05-2005 08:46									#286
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Spooky how Tamerlin haunts our subconscious, isn't it?

	05-05-2005 13:18									#287
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Sssssshhhhhhh! Listen closely. The niggling sound you hear is Havak's conscience after he voted Tory this morning.

	05-05-2005 15:57									#288
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You think?

I’m working class for many reasons – not least because I work – but pork pies are not a huge factor (although they were originally conceived as a meal on the go for agricultural workers so they do fit the charge).

quote: He said, tucking his Tory blue rosette in his desk drawer.

I smiled kindly and showed my electoral roll number to the young man wearing the blue rosette this morning – then went inside and slid the proverbial knife betwixt his masters shoulder blades as per normal. Thoroughly enjoyable.

quote: Our hostage apparently said only recently that he hoped to make his money and get out in one piece.

My own personal take is that life is more important than money. I hope this chap survives and learns that lesson.

quote: So how long will Mr Evans stay at Quins? Will he be pushed? Or does he own too much of the place?

If he does have a financial stake it certainly isn’t a completely controlling one – as with all UK clubs nailing ownership percentages down is extremely hard. I suspect he will survive for the start of next season. God help him if it starts going wrong on the pitch early on.

quote: Apart from that, the signings are mainly fringe players

Perhaps for the best – their raison d’etre is to bring on fringe players and thereby increase Wallaby reserve strengths isn’t it?

quote: No, Hurricanes have had a good couple of seasons.

Last season it looks like only one team finished below them?

quote: The Blues are all over the place this season like the proverbial mad woman's breakfast

I have always loved that expression!

Do you think they have perhaps been too hasty to bench Carlos and drive him to the rugby hell that is Saints?

quote: The Sharks, Cats, and, since Krige's departure, the Stormers, can be embarrassingly inept.

Leaving the Bulls to carry the flag? I must admit it doesn’t look good for them – they still cannot hold their best players in the country.

That said Krige was a huge disappointment at Saints.

quote: I presume it's a similar situation to here in the US - one party loves cheap 3rd-world labour (Republicans) and the other party hopes to make voters out of illegal aliens (Democrats).

Pretty similar situation Caligastia yes – generalising Tories and business owners love economic immigrants who pretty much all work for minimum wage. Labour and Lib Dems tend to believe they are natural future voters for them.

Its complicated a tad by the fact we have EC economic immigration – large number of mainly minimum wage imports who will never ever be voters in UK elections. EC economic immigration therefore only really tends to serve Tory purposes – so all their talk of tightening immigration is only referring to illegal immigrants (again this is a significant problem but the numbers pale by comparison to legal EC immigration).

I am concerned about EC economic immigration myself – it appears to me that they are getting preferential treatment for housing in the county right now and that would not make me happy. Certainly the county is being swamped with Eastern Europeans since the EC expanded last year. But before I go off pre-emptively making final judgements I’m checking the facts on this by making an FOI request to the council for detailed figures.

quote: I hear there are entire neighbourhoods that are now no-go areas for whites

This is true – though I can take you to areas that are pretty much no go for ethnic minorities too. And areas that are no go for anyone non resident in them. I’ve heard anecdotal evidence of all sorts of things – but I think all modern countries suffer from it. Colour does not bother me to be honest – but integration into British culture does so I like your point on diversity. Cultural integration can benefit us – but the British identity must not be totally lost in the process. This is another level where the Eastern European immigration bothers me – large numbers far too quickly from a totally disparate culture.

quote: Havak, I can try to force him to sit in front of a computer on next week end when I go to Toulouse (if I can find him between a rugby match and a third half-time).

Many thanks for the offer but I wouldn’t want to trouble you – or distract you from the rugby.

I’m kind of relieved he is distracted to be honest – given how poor Tigers were on the day.

The Premiership awards of the season were held last night. Tigers did rather well:

Tigers and England number eight Corry was named player of the season, while centre Ollie Smith won the Land Rover Discovery of the Season Award.
And Leicester chief Wells headed the best Director of Rugby category.

Martin Johnson, who retires at the end of the season, received the Zurich Champion Award for his "significant and long-lasting contribution" to the game.
Amusingly England hooker Steve Thompson won the Powergen Community player of the season award for his commitment to community work and dedication to the sport at several different levels. I read this as meaning he frequented local pubs and restaurants?

	05-05-2005 17:36									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I’m working class for many reasons – not least because I work – but pork pies are not a huge factor (although they were originally conceived as a meal on the go for agricultural workers so they do fit the charge).

Did I say pork pies? I meant bitter.

quote: I smiled kindly and showed my electoral roll number to the young man wearing the blue rosette this morning – then went inside and slid the proverbial knife betwixt his masters shoulder blades as per normal. Thoroughly enjoyable.

I've done the same thing to every one of our Tory leaders since my first ever vote. It's a nice feeling, even if, much more often than not, the b*astards have won!

I was reading a piece on the Brown -v- Blair situation. Brown sounds like a very interesting chap.

quote: My own personal take is that life is more important than money.

Me too. We buried a couple of our friends only in their 50s last year. Hence Italy for two years. Speaking of which, this morning, we fronted the Italian consulate here in Sydney to apply for our elective residency visas. We non-EUs need them to stay in Italy more than 3 months! Amongst other things, we had to produce fiscal evidence that we could support ourselves for two years in Italy without working. Anyway, we got the visas, so, this time in three weeks' time, the Cathay aircraft should be just taking off for Honkers!

quote: If he does have a financial stake it certainly isn’t a completely controlling one – as with all UK clubs nailing ownership percentages down is extremely hard. I suspect he will survive for the start of next season. God help him if it starts going wrong on the pitch early on.

I read something about Greenwood saying he was there for the long haul. They'd be too good for the oppo in second division, wouldn't they?

quote: Perhaps for the best – their raison d’etre is to bring on fringe players and thereby increase Wallaby reserve strengths isn’t it?

In theory. As I say, I'm not convinced we have the depth.

quote: Last season it looks like only one team finished below them?

Was it last season? Must have been the season before that they made the finals. That was when their pack was very effective. Combined with a midfield led by Umaga, they were impressive. The pack has since gone backwards.

quote: Do you think they have perhaps been too hasty to bench Carlos and drive him to the rugby hell that is Saints?

I've missed some of their games so I don't know the whole story. But from what I have seen, his replacement is only solid. There has been very little Blues magic, and with the likes of Rokococo and Howlett at the back, you'd expect some magic. (Though Howlett has been down on form) Carlos' tricks worked in S12, if not in Tests, so perhaps they were too hasty. OTOH, they probably knew he was leaving at the end of the season anyway. A pragmatic decision was possibly made.

quote: Leaving the Bulls to carry the flag? I must admit it doesn’t look good for them – they still cannot hold their best players in the country.

The Bulls have played some very good rugby this season. They've found a link between their massive (and quite mobile) pack and some very quick backs.

quote: That said Krige was a huge disappointment at Saints.

In some ways a surprise, in some ways not. I think he's probably at his best playing either for his country or with his countrymen. A bit of a patriot, perhaps.

quote: I’m kind of relieved he is distracted to be honest – given how poor Tigers were on the day.

He's biding his time. Storing it up.

quote: Land Rover Discovery of the Season Award.

You mean he didn't leak crossing streams?

quote: Martin Johnson, who retires at the end of the season, received the Zurich Champion Award for his "significant and long-lasting contribution" to the game.

Fair enough too. He deserves that and more.

quote: Amusingly England hooker Steve Thompson won the Powergen Community player of the season award for his commitment to community work and dedication to the sport at several different levels. I read this as meaning he frequented local pubs and restaurants?

Presumably he didn't make the short list for the Jenny Craig Award.

	05-05-2005 19:55									#290
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Its complicated a tad by the fact we have EC economic immigration – large number of mainly minimum wage imports who will never ever be voters in UK elections. EC economic immigration therefore only really tends to serve Tory purposes – so all their talk of tightening immigration is only referring to illegal immigrants (again this is a significant problem but the numbers pale by comparison to legal EC immigration).

Here in the US big businesses love illegals because they can pay them less than minimum wage. Bush must be getting kickbacks from his big business buddies because he seems to be doing everything in his power to keep the flow of illegals going.

quote: I am concerned about EC economic immigration myself – it appears to me that they are getting preferential treatment for housing in the county right now and that would not make me happy. Certainly the county is being swamped with Eastern Europeans since the EC expanded last year. But before I go off pre-emptively making final judgements I’m checking the facts on this by making an FOI request to the council for detailed figures.

Speaking of preferential treatment...there are US states where illegal aliens are only required to pay in-state tuition fees, while legal citizens from out of state must pay out of state fees! Sheer lunacy!

quote: This is true – though I can take you to areas that are pretty much no go for ethnic minorities too. And areas that are no go for anyone non resident in them. I’ve heard anecdotal evidence of all sorts of things – but I think all modern countries suffer from it. Colour does not bother me to be honest – but integration into British culture does so I like your point on diversity. Cultural integration can benefit us – but the British identity must not be totally lost in the process. This is another level where the Eastern European immigration bothers me – large numbers far too quickly from a totally disparate culture.

Whether colour, race or ethnicity bothers us or not, we still need to recognise that it bothers a lot of other people. And being uncomfortable with people of other ethnicities is not necessarily a moral failing. I think it is something that is, to different extents, inherent in all of us. It makes sense, therefore, to maintain some degree of homogeneity. The Eastern European influx is problematic on a cultural level, but the influx of non-european ethnicities is a problem on a cultural and a racial level. Many years down the road, the Eastern Europeans may have assimilated, but the non-european ethnicities will always be visibly different from native Britons, and will therefore always be seperate to some extent. Forcing different ethnicities together and telling them to get along because they are "diverse" is just wishful thinking. Human nature will ultimately prevail, and groups will form along racial lines.

	06-05-2005 08:30									#291
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Back on topic. I wonder if Havak's voting method of writing "J****" at the bottom of the ballot paper, drawing a little box beside it and inserting a "1" into the little box, would be declared an informal vote. If the polling booth were within a drunken fan's roar of Welford Road, probably not.

	06-05-2005 13:17									#292
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Sssssshhhhhhh! Listen closely. The niggling sound you hear is Havak's conscience after he voted Tory this morning.

Is that what that was? Rattling my windows all night and keeping me from getting all but a wink of sleep!
Oh well. In spite of Havaks defection to the Tories (asuming of course that he was ever anything but) it looks as though Tony still has a sizable majority.
~80 seats according to a poll I saw earlier.

Land Rover discovery of the season award?
Do they actually give the guy a Land Rover or is that just some cheap fancy sponsorship title?

	06-05-2005 13:21									#293
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I swear you must have a camera following me sometimes – how did you know I had voted for Jonno?

So four more years it is –with a reduced but still extremely workable majority. But he will have to be more responsive to public opinion now.

What is most amusing is both other party leaders claiming some kind of moral victory. Now with the seats declared the approximate position is this

Labour 350
Conservative 200
Lib Dem 60

That is gains of around 40 and 12 respectively for the blues and golds. But it means if all the minor parties voted with both of them every time Labour still have a commanding commons majority.

Howard is realistically claiming it’s a “real advance towards our recovery” but Kennedy is priceless as he ludicrously claims that he sees a "new challenge" ahead as the UK enters an era of ‘real three-party politics’. Dear Charles – it isn’t a hung parliament so your sixty seats don’t matter.

So I can return to my working class pork pies and bitter confident in the knowledge that we don’t have to face the Tories again fro at least two to three leaders in their future (maybe as long as four years).

Now Gordon Brown – I would not say he is interesting particularly but he is more old school Labour. The again his tenure as Chancellor has directly led to a country where youngsters are locked out the housing market so a big black mark on him for that. It’s unlikely I would vote for him – don’t want another Scot as PM (Tony is Scottish of course – he doesn’t shout about it much).

quote: It's a nice feeling, even if, much more often than not, the b*astards have won!

Sometimes it is the only thing that lets one cope with the wrong side winning?

quote: We non-EUs need them to stay in Italy more than 3 months!

Join the EC Finbar – every other Tom, Dick and Harry country is after all. And the more that do the quicker we can leave and let France and Germany pick up the bill for once.

The best bit of advice I ever got (although it was from the welcher – remember him?) was if you want to do something do it now – for you don’t know what your future will bring and you may not be fit enough to do it. I’m sure you have made a good call in going to Italy. As we get older our impending mortality is brought home to us all the more by friends passing away in an untimely fashioned – go for it whilst you can!

quote: They'd be too good for the oppo in second division, wouldn't they?

Right now? Yes. But that squad will not stay together. By being relegated the TV money dries up – this means a black hole of several million pounds in next years budget. It is not out of the question that they will go bust!

I’m not rising to the crossing streams crack – and I will need you to remind me about the Jenny Craig award Finbar!

quote: Fair enough too. He deserves that and more.

Interestingly I watched the coverage of the awards last night – the two Sky TV pundits picked a Premiership XV of the season – no Jonno, no ollie and no Corry (the winners of all the playing awards!). Bizarre team if I thought the names would resonate at all I would list it. To give a flavour of it one of the wingers was from London Irish – that’s right the team with the record for least tries this season by a country mile!

quote: Here in the US big businesses love illegals because they can pay them less than minimum wage

That also happens here – textile factories in Leicester are frequently found to be using illegals. Strangely most of Leicester’s textile factories are owned by ethnic minorities (the city being one of the UK’s most mutli-cultural).

Immigration is reaching crisis point now most of Eastern Europe can just up sticks and come here legally though. We will have to review our policy on the whole issue.

quote: Speaking of preferential treatment...there are US states where illegal aliens are only required to pay in-state tuition fees, while legal citizens from out of state must pay out of state fees! Sheer lunacy!

That’s the trouble with a Federal system I think? It’s ridiculous that immigration is in any way a state issue – it should be solely a national one with legislation set by Federal government.

quote: Forcing different ethnicities together and telling them to get along because they are "diverse" is just wishful thinking. Human nature will ultimately prevail, and groups will form along racial lines.

I’m really not comfortable with addressing this in terms of colour – it’s not the key. In may ways the ‘white’ Polish immigrants of 1939 have integrated less than the ‘colured’ Asians from the 1960s – but all their kids and grandkids are increasingly British and this will continue through the generations.

I’m not against immigration per se – it’s the current huge volume that concerns me as it is simply too many for effective integration to ever occur. If you allow in very large communities for an extended period they are going to live as those communities – that is human nature too.

I don’t have any answers – but I do know that UKIP and Veritas’s “throw out the foreigners” approach is a step towards facism that I personally didn’t want to take.

	06-05-2005 15:10									#294
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It's cheap fancy sponsorship title Ravagon. It used to be simply "young player of the season".

The majority is currently forecast at being 66 - that means 66 seats more than all the other parties added together. It means all but the most controversial legislation will be passed still in essence.

The day I vote Tory is the day I will cheer on the ABs against England.

	06-05-2005 18:38									#295
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quote: The day I vote Tory is the day I will cheer on the ABs against England.

Let's ask the Rugby Union to plan a match against New Zealand on the same day as an English election then.

	06-05-2005 19:27									#296
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Perhaps if I said the day I vote Tory is the day the French stop drinking wine it gives a better idea of the probabilties involved?

Super news today that Michael Howard is stepping down as their leader. That leaves almost no one with a prominent public profile or experience of government to stand as their leader. Great stuff.

	06-05-2005 20:01									#297
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quote: Perhaps if I said the day I vote Tory is the day the French stop drinking wine it gives a better idea of the probabilties involved

ok, I'm beaten. I am not going to compute the probability that all the wine in France gets teleported to alpha Centauri by a random tunnel effect.

	06-05-2005 21:51									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Havak That’s the trouble with a Federal system I think? It’s ridiculous that immigration is in any way a state issue – it should be solely a national one with legislation set by Federal government.

Yes, the trouble is that the federal government doesn't want to do its job, so that forces the individual states into doing something about it.

quote: I’m really not comfortable with addressing this in terms of colour – it’s not the key. In may ways the ‘white’ Polish immigrants of 1939 have integrated less than the ‘colured’ Asians from the 1960s – but all their kids and grandkids are increasingly British and this will continue through the generations.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "British". When I picture a "british" person, I see a white person. Obviously there are other components to being "British", but ethnicity is definitely one of them IMO.

quote: I’m not against immigration per se – it’s the current huge volume that concerns me as it is simply too many for effective integration to ever occur. If you allow in very large communities for an extended period they are going to live as those communities – that is human nature too.

Yep. There are now large communities in the US in which you cannot get around without speaking spanish. That's not a good thing IMO. A common language is critical if you want different groups to get along with one another.

quote: I don’t have any answers – but I do know that UKIP and Veritas’s “throw out the foreigners” approach is a step towards facism that I personally didn’t want to take.

It depends if the foreigners are legal or not. Britain should allow those living there legally to stay, obviously, but kick out the illegals.

	09-05-2005 00:46									#299
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Spooky how Tamerlin haunts our subconscious, isn't it?

I don't know who proposed to force me to sit in front of my computer for a week but I can promise him a tough time doing do.

	09-05-2005 04:37									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Perhaps if I said the day I vote Tory is the day the French stop drinking wine it gives a better idea of the probabilties involved?

So what you're really saying is that it's nowhere near as improbable as the probability that finbar will get homesick and cut short his visit to Italy?

[Mmmm. Perhaps some probabilities are better left uncalculated ... ]

Somewhere close to the probability of having ones improbability drive melt down into custard then I imagine?