08-03-2005 07:39									#151
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I also did read it in full.

I do not think the US military is at blame. I do however think you guys did not inform us at the proper levels. That's my opinion. I'm placing the blame on the Italian government.

	08-03-2005 07:50									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo The manifesto? Should I take what they say as truth? Why?

May I note I'm not quoting "Manifesto"? May I note the article you quoted mentioned a different newspaper: "La Stampa"?

I invite you to check by yourself (you said you have italian parents, I hope they can help you with the italian translation) that "La Stampa" has not been against USA in its general, day-by-day article?

May I note that I'm not mixing the two points of italian army presence in Iraq (BTW USA needs them for political reasons, maybe not for military one, as for others allies) and the deadly incident we are speaking about?

May I note I suggested that we should wait a serius, two parts investigation, to decide our truth, while debating our first opinion?

I wrote my first post in this thread because I feel insulted from some posts (not necessary yours), and I feel the thread was left empty of a different source of information than USA press. Now I believe posters have read a different point of view, and have more opportunity to balance their opinion. That's enough for me.

	08-03-2005 07:52									#153
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So only articles against the US are credible? I feel insulted by your posts thus far...

	08-03-2005 08:24									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo From what I understand, the particular checkpoint was pretty deep in the checkpoint system due to its proximity to the Baghdad airport (supposedly an area better defended than the Green Zone), i.e. it's extremely unlikely that a suicide bomber could've gotten that far in the first place.

BIAP is a mixed civilian/military facility and I assure you there are routine attacks there though fewer then in the Green Zone. The reason is BIAP is outside the city while the Green Zone is downtown so it is easier to fire and run amoung all the civilians then it is to do the same from an open field with American helecopters flying over head. Still, it is a big area which includes several thousand civilian homes, Iraqi workers who work at BIAP, and with large numbers of civilians going to and from BIAP. Security remains a huge issue and isn't "extremely unlikely" by any stretch of the imagination.

	08-03-2005 09:02									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I must be the only Leftie on this site who does not spout crazy conspricacy theories. This was an accident; it's a war-zone, sh*t happens.

Yeah, before you take that trophy home, keep in mind most of us lefties haven't weighed in with an opinion one way or another. I'd rather wait for more information.

	08-03-2005 14:18									#156
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quote: Originally posted by One_Mean_Rabbit Israel during intifada. N. and S. Vietnam/Korea during respective wars. Face it, it was a silly diversion that also was wrong. It's not difficult.

Israel is/was not a war zone. Neither South Vietnam nor South Korea was democratic. Try again.

quote: Originally posted by One_Mean_Rabbit Also, while my response was 11 words, your one there was 18 and the very next one was 15 words. Are you seroius?! I mean really? You want me to add 4 or 7 more words, or are you just being hyper?

It was about your whole string of one line responses.

	08-03-2005 19:02									#157
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I find it really strange that a car with three agents from the secret services behave basically "like suicide bombers" according to what I've read in the thread. Unless all three were exhausted and didn't know what they were doing anymore, I don't see how they could be that wrong. Especially when you consider that they have passed several checkpoints without problems.

I also have a question for Oerdin (or any other military type here): When you're under fire for no immediately known reason, how do you recognize warning fire from actual shots aimed at you?

	08-03-2005 19:10									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I also have a question for Oerdin (or any other military type here): When you're under fire for no immediately known reason, how do you recognize warning fire from actual shots aimed at you?

The warning ones aren't (supposedly) hitting you- or your car ?

	08-03-2005 19:20									#159
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if some body started shooting in my general direction on a road that is known to be dangerous i know i would want to get the **** out of there...

perhaps not the right reaction but ineed a very human one.

	08-03-2005 19:21									#160
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis if some body started shooting in my general direction on a road that is known to be dangerous i know i would want to get the **** out of there... perhaps not the right reaction but ineed a very human one.

Obviously not, we know where it led.

	08-03-2005 19:21									#161
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom The warning ones aren't (supposedly) hitting you- or your car ?

Well, but when you're in a moving car at night, I'd imagine that even shots aimed at you may miss

	08-03-2005 19:24									#162
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Obviously not, we know where it led.

but the point reamains :

i find it hard to believe they were approaching a clearly indicated check point when they were fired upon. especially at night.

	09-03-2005 00:06									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Israel is/was not a war zone. Neither South Vietnam nor South Korea was democratic. Try again. It was about your whole string of one line responses.

Really? Thousands of Palestinians dead and hundreds of Israelis? You have a funny definition of warzone.

Nice word switch. We were talking about soveriegn nations, not democracies. You don't have to be democratic to be sovereign. Give it up, it was a silly argument that is just wrong.

Whole string of one liners? Like your response I just quoted? Please give it a rest. You are arguing over inane things now.

Later!

	09-03-2005 02:11									#164
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Fez's DL!! (or am I repeating myself? )

quote: Really? Thousands of Palestinians dead and hundreds of Israelis? You have a funny definition of warzone.

If terrorism is a crime then Israel is not a war zone. If terrorism is an act of war, then it is. The definition relies on the assumption of, or to the contrary that terrorism is an act of war. That's a whole other debate, but imo the more consistent position is that it is a crime, not an AoW.

quote: You are arguing over inane things now.

A guestimate of 60% of your posts here are arguing over inane things.

quote: Later!

Indeed.

	09-03-2005 02:23									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Fez's DL!! (or am I repeating myself? ) If terrorism is a crime then Israel is not a war zone. If terrorism is an act of war, then it is. The definition relies on the assumption of, or to the contrary that terrorism is an act of war. That's a whole other debate, but imo the more consistent position is that it is a crime, not an AoW. A guestimate of 60% of your posts here are arguing over inane things. Indeed.

You obviously aren't saying anything new...Again, you have a very funny definition of what a warzone means. It's funny how you again tried to dance away, but this time ignoring instead of switching words. You can be sovereign and in a warzone.

I am discussing the threads, you are arguing over vocabulary and ignoring points or changing subjects. There's people like you in every forum.

Take care.

	09-03-2005 02:43									#166
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quote: You obviously aren't saying anything new...Again, you have a very funny definition of what a warzone means. It's funny how you again tried to dance away, but this time ignoring instead of switching words. You can be sovereign and in a warzone.

You're either paralysed by stupidity or an inability to understand what people are saying. I did not disagree that "warzone" and "sovereign nation" are not mutually exclusive, but as I recall, that was not the contention that your opponent made in the first place. Strawmen .

quote: I am discussing the threads, you are arguing over vocabulary and ignoring points or changing subjects.

No you're not, you're distorting people's arguments, you're exuding profundities and you're pretending to be competent when you should have the humility to observe people who actually know how to debate.

quote: Take care.

Are you leaving?

	09-03-2005 05:15									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Why have checkpoints in a democracy enjoying full freedom? SOP is a really bad excuse for any mistake, SOP would have killed Saddam and left no traces if they were fully followed in 2003, prolonging the worst part of the war by months or years. Throw a grenade down the hole, and all problems will be gone. The grenade will never destroy any private property, it will never kill any innocent children, and that red pulp sticking to the spiderhole wall will be checked out by a DNA test and identified as a part of Saddam's ass. Yeah right... F*CK SOP

that whole thing about the suicide bombers routinely killing indiscriminately might have something to do with it.

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Would a car going on a suicide bombing run have 4 people in it? That's a bit of a waste, isn't it?

They have used families as cover for both suicide bombings and attempts to break the morale of the checkpointers to allow for suicide bombings.

quote: Originally posted by MarkG from the US Army statement quote: "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others." how can you honestly that you killed the passengers of a speeding (according to you) car while aiming at the car engine?

You seriously think that:
a)They shoot bee-bees at passing cars?
b)They don't spray and pray?

quote: Originally posted by Sandman How do you know that the car was going at 55mph?

lets go to the source:
"The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed. It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water in Baghdad and maybe wind up in a bad car accident after all I had been through would really be a tale I would not be able to tell. "

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europ...esto/index.html

You don't almost lose control of jack **** when travelling at 10 mph.


"Italian agents likely withheld information from U.S. counterparts..."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/func...07-120131-5769r


This was a "suicide by cop" plain and simple.

	09-03-2005 15:56									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo So only articles against the US are credible? I feel insulted by your posts thus far...

Hmmm, is my english really so bad you read something different?
I wrote

quote: I wrote my first post in this thread because I feel insulted from some posts (not necessarILy yours), and I feel the thread was left empty of a different source of information than USA press. Now I believe posters have read a different point of view, and have more opportunity to balance their opinion. That's enough for me.

Do you mean ONLY part of articles you mentioned are credible?

I strongly suggested everyone here consider there is a different version of the story. I don't assume mine is the only true story, but it is a plausible, different version.

I also mentioned the need of an American and Italian (working jointly on the field) investigation, BEFORE defining the killed man a stupid, unable to understand english sign of a checkpoint (someone wrote so in a few posts in this thread).

Is any USA patrol is in full Rule of Engagement rights to shot a civilian car - at least 12 bullets holes are in the car, the rear and passenger windows are crashed - no questions, no dubts?
Sorry, the democracy state otherwise, and USA still is a strong democracy AFAIK, also when some of its citizen act not accordingly to this fact.

I don't insult USA, nor you. Sorry if you feel insulted by me.

	09-03-2005 16:39									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I find it really strange that a car with three agents from the secret services behave basically "like suicide bombers" .

Have you seen Italians drive?