10-03-2005 03:51									#271
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Lincoln

	10-03-2005 03:54									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The Civil War was started based upon State's Rights

The state's right to defend slavery, specifically.

	10-03-2005 03:54									#273
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Sava,

So you hold in highest regard a president that goes to war for a stated cause only to switch rationale for the war in mid stream for political expediency.

Friggin repugs they're all teh same.

	10-03-2005 04:04									#274
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Benefits loading = another 33%

People who make minimium wage never, ever, ever get benifits. Also your example ignores competitive pressures which prevent price rises. Your theory is nice but past history both in the US and abroad shows that you are WAY over stating inflationary pressures. The observed pressures are only a tiny fraction of what you claim because the market is competitive and a proportionally few number of workers are paid minimium wage.

Can you at least admite that observed historical examples of minimium wage increases have not followed your theory? California, New Jersey, New York and numerous other states have raised their minimium wage (with in reason) without the massive negitive effects you cliamed plus several Europeans have commented upon how reasonable minimium wage laws also have not historically produced the results you claim.

	10-03-2005 04:08									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe highest regard

I only gave him one thumbs up.

	10-03-2005 04:08									#276
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The state's right to defend slavery, specifically.

Actually the the straw that broke the camel's back was the federal government's right to set tarrifs. The industrialized North wanted high tarrifs while the agrarian south wanted low tarrifs so their cotton & tabacco wouldn't be subject to European retaliation.

	10-03-2005 04:10									#277
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Sava, So you hold in highest regard a president that goes to war for a stated cause only to switch rationale for the war in mid stream for political expediency. Friggin repugs they're all teh same.

I don't see it as simple poltics but instead I see it as a deeply moral man attempting to find moral justification for the carnage. He decides it isn't just to save the union but instead it is to save the union and make it a morally better place.

	10-03-2005 04:16									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin People who make minimium wage never, ever, ever get benifits. Also your example ignores competitive pressures which prevent price rises. Your theory is nice but past history both in the US and abroad shows that you are WAY over stating inflationary pressures. The observed pressures are only a tiny fraction of what you claim because the market is competitive and a proportionally few number of workers are paid minimium wage. Can you at least admite that observed historical examples of minimium wage increases have not followed your theory? California, New Jersey, New York and numerous other states have raised their minimium wage (with in reason) without the massive negitive effects you cliamed plus several Europeans have commented upon how reasonable minimium wage laws also have not historically produced the results you claim.

Actually for McD's and Walmart you'ld be hard pressed not to find bennies included at all entry level full time positions. Including health dental and 401k's. Also realize there are mandated employer contributions for unemployment and the like regardless.

As for inflationary forces towards variable costs you'll note I didn't even figure those in. I kept those constant at $0.50/$1.00

As for examples of Cali, NJ, NY with increased minimum wage I am by no means convinced as they have historically been hemoraging jobs of late (now granted the tech bubble had a significant impact in Cali) but I'm sure labor costs enviro costs, regulational costs are as much responsible for that as any single factor.

	10-03-2005 04:26									#279
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I don't see it as simple poltics but instead I see it as a deeply moral man attempting to find moral justification for the carnage. He decides it isn't just to save the union but instead it is to save the union and make it a morally better place.

Actually it was a cold calculated means to prevent England and France from ever deciding to intervene. Political expedience plain and simple. It just convenient it also fit into his developing world view.

	10-03-2005 05:13									#280
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Wow, you really ought to lay off of the caffiene. Ooooh, sweet. Avoided my point.

You had a point?

	10-03-2005 05:15									#281
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If you're an advocate of Naziism, you ought at least not be a member of a group that Nazis plan on exterminating. To advocate an ideology that will result in your extintion is idiocy, regardless of any otherwise intelligent qualities you might have.

Who says that just because of my blood, I am meant for extinction? Is that what you are trying to say? LOL! Was that an appology or just more rhetoric?

	10-03-2005 05:16									#282
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quote: There I was thinking that the Civil War war fought in the main part to defeat slavery.

Do you and others really think that ridiculous statements like this help your argument? There's more drama on here than Real World.

	10-03-2005 05:22									#283
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Ogie: I'm sure it had some thing to do with that but the reality is the British weren't about to intervene in a bloody land war where millions of people were dieing. Especially since their main reason would to be to gain access to blockaded southern cotton but the British instead just started planting cotton in India and Egypt to make up for the lost American sources. Cotton was also produced in Brazil so there really was never a solid economic case for intervention.

Lincoln made the moral argument mainly to anwser the domestic voices about why a democracy should fight to keep people who didn't want to stay. His anwser was we aren't just fighting to make them stay but we are also fighting to end the immoral practice of slavery.

	10-03-2005 05:49									#284
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quote: Originally posted by One_Mean_Rabbit Do you and others really think that ridiculous statements like this help your argument? There's more drama on here than Real World.

this guy is almost funnier than fez

	10-03-2005 07:00									#285
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The state's right to defend slavery, specifically.

The reason for secession perhaps, but not the reason the Civil War was fought. After all, Lincoln didn't give a damn about emancipation until it could be used as a political tool. Lincoln fought the Civil War, not to defeat slavery (as MOBIUS stated), but to perserve the union.

	10-03-2005 07:08									#286
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It matters a lot whether these folks are just starting out in the work force. They have to start their careers somewhere and raising the minimum wage would mean that some of them would not get that job to start their career in the first place.

This is the DUMBEST economic theory in the history of capitalism. And remember, it's some dumbasses' theory, it is not a fact.

If raising minimum wage really killed profitability, then why are CEO salaries continuing to rise?

The CEO wage gap in this country is 300:1. It has been RISING steadily. Compare this with every other country in the world and you will not see such a scandalous gap between line worker and boss.

How many minimum wage workers do you think a company could employ for that extra million bucks the CEO really doesn't need? A LOT.

Every state needs to have a living wage and it needs to be raised quite substantially. It's not just teenage workers and immigrants that take these jobs.


The economic priorities in this country are ****ed up and out of balance.

	10-03-2005 07:13									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe As for examples of Cali, NJ, NY with increased minimum wage I am by no means convinced as they have historically been hemoraging jobs of late (now granted the tech bubble had a significant impact in Cali) but I'm sure labor costs enviro costs, regulational costs are as much responsible for that as any single factor.

That's funny because the unemployment rate hasn't moved much and has gone down slightly. We never saw a lose of jobs dispite our miniium wage being several dollars per hour higher then the rest of the country and our inflation (minus housing which has always been out of control due to population growth exceeding supply) has been at or lower then the national average. I'd bet low wage work has even increased since we last raised the minium wage.

The only sectors which I've heard losing lots of employees are technology (the bubble popped), the movies (Hollywood no longer has a lock on that and so must compete against foreigners), and the aircraft business (people just aren't buying the number of planes post 9/11 that they used to). None of those are low wage jobs where people work for minimiium wage.

	10-03-2005 07:31									#288
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People brought up slavery before, as well as minimum wage conditions. This was actually in the Lincoln-Douglas debates or some similar thing, IIRC- Lincoln's opponent pointed out that conditions in northern factories could be just as bad as on planations. But Lincoln pointed out the important difference- if you don't like working in that factory, you can walk up to the owner and say "I quit." People can still do that today if they hate their jobs. There ARE other jobs out there. I won't pretend that the allure of having a job compared to looking for one isn't a tight leash, but it's not anywhere near slavery.

To advocate an ideology that will result in your extintion is idiocy, regardless of any otherwise intelligent qualities you might have.

Or perhaps honesty. Regardless of whether or not something will cause your extinction... example, suppose you have a person who well & truly believes in some Judeo-Christian God, but also has decided that such a being is not worthy of their worship. "Yeah, you exist, God, but I just don't like your style. I'll take the punishment."

Or take a Russian Jew circa 1850 who well & truly believes in democracy in the truest sense of the word- no natural rights, no checks and balances, simply the rule of the people (There are such people still around, and they're cheerfuly in favor of, say, school prayer if a locality wants it). They believe that it's simply the best form of government, even though in their current situation it might get them Greek-democracy style ostracized/exiled, or even worse.

I wouldn't call either of those beliefs necessarily idiotic.

If raising minimum wage really killed profitability, then why are CEO salaries continuing to rise?

CEO's salaries rising- while an utter travesty- has nothing to do with the minimum wage. It's probably the result of competitive bidding on something very intangible of which there's a small supply of. Imagine a small stadium that only seated 100 people, but 200 people bought tickets. If the stadium manager's solution is to encourage everyone to come early, and this situation is repeated several times, people will just keep on coming earlier & earlier with no end in sight.

A good CEO is a very rare thing, but one worth a whole pile of money. So even if a CEO would be quite happy to work for "merely" a million dollars or so, the demand is so wonky on them that the price is driven entirely out of proportion. You can see a similar effect with sports stars. Is Barry Bonds really worth a zillion times more than your median second baseman?

	10-03-2005 07:43									#289
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Ack, there was an ageism related thread/group of comments that I missed (for good reason though!). I won't sift through it all, but why should teens or people under 25 be less worthy of a good wage than anyone else?

Opposing raising the minimum wage on the premise (right or not) that its just a bunch of dumb teens getting minimum wage anyways, is a terrible reason. But ack, I don't have time or patience to debate it, so I'm just registering my comment for the official record.

	10-03-2005 07:48									#290
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What do you think we have some legislative history somewhere here? "For the official record"

And the argument isn't that it is a bunch of 'dumb' teens getting the jobs, but that many people making the wage are in their first job and/or don't have the schooling for the higher paying job. In that case, it makes sense they make less.

	10-03-2005 07:50									#291
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It's just another sorry excuse to avoid paying a living wage to people who need it. The impacts of raising the minimium wage $1-$2 are tiny over all but they huge to people who need the money to make ends meet. CEOs and boards of directors always feel they themselves deserve a raise but never anyone else, which is fine, but don't feel bad when their tax rate gets raised through the roof in order to discourage such unethical behavior.

	10-03-2005 07:51									#292
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In addition to Imran's point it was also posited that the majority were first time employees (i.e. kids in a first job) to refute the accusation that the vast majority of minimum wagers are single parent mothers trying to feed a family of 5 on minimum wage.

	10-03-2005 07:55									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker This is the DUMBEST economic theory in the history of capitalism. And remember, it's some dumbasses' theory, it is not a fact. If raising minimum wage really killed profitability, then why are CEO salaries continuing to rise? The CEO wage gap in this country is 300:1. It has been RISING steadily. Compare this with every other country in the world and you will not see such a scandalous gap between line worker and boss. How many minimum wage workers do you think a company could employ for that extra million bucks the CEO really doesn't need? A LOT. Every state needs to have a living wage and it needs to be raised quite substantially. It's not just teenage workers and immigrants that take these jobs. The economic priorities in this country are ****ed up and out of balance.

TED STRIKER LADIES AND GENTLEMAN!

	10-03-2005 07:59									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin That's funny because the unemployment rate hasn't moved much and has gone down slightly. We never saw a lose of jobs dispite our miniium wage being several dollars per hour higher then the rest of the country and our inflation (minus housing which has always been out of control due to population growth exceeding supply) has been at or lower then the national average. I'd bet low wage work has even increased since we last raised the minium wage. The only sectors which I've heard losing lots of employees are technology (the bubble popped), the movies (Hollywood no longer has a lock on that and so must compete against foreigners), and the aircraft business (people just aren't buying the number of planes post 9/11 that they used to). None of those are low wage jobs where people work for minimiium wage.

Two words wrt Cali - Illegal immigrants

	10-03-2005 16:07									#295
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin People who make minimium wage never, ever, ever get benifits

True, even if, theoretically, the job offers bennies. Most min wage jobs that offer bennies (and the do exist) make you wait six months before becomming eligible. Guess what happens when six months starts to loom. You get fired and rehired.

	10-03-2005 16:13									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe In addition to Imran's point it was also posited that the majority were first time employees (i.e. kids in a first job) to refute the accusation that the vast majority of minimum wagers are single parent mothers trying to feed a family of 5 on minimum wage.

NPR says it's 60% of min wage earners that are single mothers, and no one yet has refuted that.

	10-03-2005 19:11									#297
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara True, even if, theoretically, the job offers bennies. Most min wage jobs that offer bennies (and the do exist) make you wait six months before becomming eligible. Guess what happens when six months starts to loom. You get fired and rehired.

No typically you find a better job and move on. The point remains tho' many people do not in fact take advantage of teh bennies.

That being said remember in addition to health care, dental, etc. there are paid holidays and normally 2 weeks vacation. The last are worth nominally 10% of paid salary alone.

	10-03-2005 19:13									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe In addition to Imran's point it was also posited that the majority were first time employees (i.e. kids in a first job) to refute the accusation that the vast majority of minimum wagers are single parent mothers trying to feed a family of 5 on minimum wage.

I do find that statement funny as well. My brother is 17 and is making more than minimum wage. He is nothing special, just a normal HS kid. The idea that someone who is not mentally or physically retarded cannot make more than minimum wage for an extended period of time is crazy. Sure, you may start there, but after 6 months, you will probably get a raise if you work hard. If not, add that to your resume/application and go apply. This is so simple, all of my brother's friends make at least $1.50 more than minimum wage. And this is at Smoothie Kings, via landscaping, working at golf courses, and Tanning places.

	10-03-2005 19:15									#299
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara NPR says it's 60% of min wage earners that are single mothers, and no one yet has refuted that.

There actually may be no need as teh single parent mothers may be in fact kids working a first time job.

	10-03-2005 19:21									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Ogie: I'm sure it had some thing to do with that but the reality is the British weren't about to intervene in a bloody land war where millions of people were dieing. Especially since their main reason would to be to gain access to blockaded southern cotton but the British instead just started planting cotton in India and Egypt to make up for the lost American sources. Cotton was also produced in Brazil so there really was never a solid economic case for intervention.

I beleive the fear was not so much an involvement in a land war but moreover breaking the naval blockades the Union was able to enforce on the south thus allowing the south access to trade partners, cotton for guns and gunpowder.

Face it teh south was desperate, they would have sold cotton on the cheap just in order to gain access to up to date materiel and supplies.