09-03-2005 08:44									#181
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quote: How is hope factual? Hope, of course, being defined as believing in the off chance that something good will happen, especially when the odds are not in your favor?

It's not, and that's the point. Pessimism, which is the polar opposite of optimism cannot therefore be factual as well. The polar opposite of hope is despair. The MIDDLE ground *and in most cases the more accurate* is REALISM. No emotions involved, simply an anaylsis of what has been and what is most probable to be based off of facts. Not hoping for hte better or betting on the worst, to save yourself the grief of dealing with the real world when it hits.

	09-03-2005 08:44									#182
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quote: Warren Buffett recently made headlines by saying America is more likely to turn into a "sharecroppers' society" than an "ownership society." But I think the right term is a "debt peonage" society - after the system, prevalent in the post-Civil War South, in which debtors were forced to work for their creditors. The bankruptcy bill won't get us back to those bad old days all by itself, but it's a significant step in that direction.

Buffet was talking about the trade deficit and the budget deficit which is financed by foreign money when he made the quote. Krugman took that quote completely out of context. Still, I like his article and we do need a higher minimium wage; the Republicans proposed a $1.10 while Democrats called for a $2.20 raise to restore it's historical average level. The Senate Republicans killed both.

This new bankruptcy bill is the second in three years which has badly striped citizens of their right to a fresh start. I'm ashamed that my country protects the wealthy but not the working man and I'm normally a pretty free market guy.

	09-03-2005 08:45									#183
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quote: Actually, I care. I do assign value judgements to motives... and altruism trumps self-interest here. 'Tis better to make charitable donations because you want to, and it's heinous to make charitable donations because it benefits you more.

While I respect your belief, I hardly think the poor person getting food/clothes from the rich guy who wants to save on his taxes cares much WHY he or she is eating or being clothed at that moment.

Again, this is just another example of our differing outlooks. I see it in the real sense, and you see it from an emotional point of view.

	09-03-2005 08:50									#184
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Congressional DEMO Are Scum!. They are both scum.

	09-03-2005 09:38									#185
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OMR, maybe we should be taking this discussion of Optimism/Pessimism into another thread or PMs, since it doesn't have much to do with whether or not Congresspeople are scum or not. Which they are, be they Democrat or Republican.

quote: While I respect your belief, I hardly think the poor person getting food/clothes from the rich guy who wants to save on his taxes cares much WHY he or she is eating or being clothed at that moment.

Whatever the beneficiaries feel is immaterial to me, an outside observer. They will assign a different value judgement to the gift they've received than I would give.

quote: Again, this is just another example of our differing outlooks. I see it in the real sense, and you see it from an emotional point of view.

I fail to see how you're looking at it in a real sense: after all, I'm fully prepared to admit that my value judgement is completely worthless, since the matter of a donation, charitable or not, is between the donator and the recipient. I'm not a part of it, so even if I do feel that the donation is not truly "charitable", there's not much I can do about it.

	09-03-2005 09:41									#186
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quote: Small effect accompanies small increase. But a big effect on the people who lose their jobs...

That's correct, and so it's a judgement we have to make if the living standards increased by a minimum wage is worth a number of people spending a longer time unemployed.

It should be noted there was a study comparing fast food hiring in Eastern PA and New Jersey, when NJ increased it's minimum wage and Eastern PA did not, and found faster hiring growth in NJ. There are serious questions about that studie's validity.

quote: If we'd like to fix this problem, perhaps we should lower the minimum wage, but rigidly enforce it- no more casual off the books hiring.

I don't see what the size of the min wage and enforcement of it have to do with each other though; it should be just as easy to enforce a high minimum wage as a lower one so long as the penalties are severe enough. Stopping hiring off the books though would probably be pretty much impossible; so long as you have a willing partner for exchange, trading is going to take place, and so long as both parties remain silent is going to be pretty hard to catch.

quote: We could allow businesses to set whatever they like for wages, which WOULD increase the number of jobs being offered as DanS and elementary economics point out; people would be guarenteed basic workplace rights; and people trying to support families off currently sub-minimum wage jobs could be sure they didn't starve to death. Might be a strain on our welfare budget, but we're cheating it right now by not paying those people, so meh.

Come to think of it you may have a point, consumer subsidies probably would be a more efficent way of helping the poor, rather then shifting the burden of assisting the poor on to businesses by means of a negative income tax on the poorest people, whereby their salary would be augmented by the government.

Although, politically as it stands a decrease in the minimum wage probably would not be packaged in with other means of helping the poor.

quote: Ok, and there are many others in between poor and rich who are not entrepeneurs. I understand the need for all niches in the economy. I am just arguing that no one is trapped forever in a niche. Not for a lifetime.

Some people are going to make it out of property, but again because of the limited number of well paying jobs, not everyone will. If you get a college education you can, but if you don't have one as I said opportunites are decreasing. What we have been seeing in fact is downward mobility, many people who once had solid middle class jobs find themselves in less well paying jobs. Some people will escape this life on the lowest rung, and it is possible for any one person to escape this, but the way it is set up not everyone will, and some people will be trapped forever in this niche.

quote: We also have a system that financially rewards charity donations. Who cares of the motive in which it is given, as long as it helps people.

Much of Charity often goes towards stuff such as Operas, Theatre, other charity aid goes overseas. While all of those noble aims, it wouldn't be an effective substitute for the government.

quote: If you decide to pop out babies before you can afford them,

What if you can afford them, until that is your boyfriend decides to abandon you? And what about those babies born into that life?

quote: We make it so that it doesn't make sense *opportunistically* to get off of welfare to work a 40 hr job making the same amount of money.

We have that now with limits for how long you can be on welfare after Gingrinch passed Welfare Reform.

	09-03-2005 09:43									#187
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You want to fix the minimum wage hike problem? It's incredibly simple:

Right now, iirc, the base salary of a congressman is ~$155,000/year. A person working full time at minimum wage, by contrast, makes $10,712/year. In other words, the current minimum wage is about 7% of the salary of a congressman.

Okay: fix it there, so that congress can't give itself a raise without raising the minimum wage. The minimum wage will be a living wage in no time.

	09-03-2005 09:46									#188
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Snowie's got a point about illegal immigration. Right now a lot of companies have it the best of both worlds. They get all the immigrants they need, but since they're illegal they can screw them over to a much greater degree than they could with citizens or legal immigrants.

What the American government needs to do is come down hard hard hard on the companies that hire illegal immigrants, that's the only way to stop the problem, you're never going to get enough border patrolmen to stop all the people who really really want to get across if there's plenty of jobs available.

At the same time US immigration laws have gotten really insane. Its become ridiculously difficult to get a student or tourist visa let alone a green card. When I tried to get my fiance into the states to meet the parents I was told that I'd have to go to the states and apply THERE for a fiance visa and then wait three months. Then we talked to an immigration lawyer about getting a tourist visa and she said she wouldn't touch my fiance unless she'd held down a job that paid well above Korea's per capita GDP for two years or had a ****-load of money in her bank account (there was a checklist of these things, and they all had to do with money ). We eneded up going to Canada.

The US economy loses billions and billions a year by putting up these kind of ridiculous hurdles in the face of people who want to come into the country legally. American higher education has been having a lot of problems with their international students having a hard time getting student visas, which is really going to hurt us in the long term. Also there's a MASSIVE business in Canada and Australia (mostly) in which Koreans (and I assume lots of other people) go over for a few months to polish up their English. These people really should be going to the States with the current weak american dollar, but they're not because of American immigration policy which is losing the American economy ****-loads of money. Its ridiculous that the American government is causing all kinds of problems for these kind of people when they're not doing more to crack down on companies hiring illegal immigrants.

	09-03-2005 09:53									#189
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quote: That's correct, and so it's a judgement we have to make if the living standards increased by a minimum wage is worth a number of people spending a longer time unemployed.

Its not that simple. You can't treat labor like any other commodity, it doesn't obey the standard laws of supply and demand the way that say bananas do. Its much much more complicated and over-simplifications of that sort really confuse the issue. Also, its very very doubtful that European minimum wage laws have all that much to do with European unemployment, I'd blame regulations that make it difficult for European companies to fire people. That way they don't hire more people during booms since they don't have to deal with getting rid of them during busts.

That said, a negative income tax (think the Earned Income Tax Credit on steroids) would be a much better better idea than having minimum wage laws. It'd do a whole lot to chip away at the black economy and make employers have less reason to hire illegal immigrants.

	09-03-2005 10:23									#190
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quote: Its not that simple. You can't treat labor like any other commodity, it doesn't obey the standard laws of supply and demand the way that say bananas do.

Well to extent it is. If labor becomes more expensive, then theory predicts less incentive to higher workers. The question is how much theory is correct, on this the empirical evidence is mixed.

	09-03-2005 10:37									#191
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quote: That's correct, and so it's a judgement we have to make if the living standards increased by a minimum wage is worth a number of people spending a longer time unemployed.

For people without jobs their standard of living goes down, not just the unemployed but people who are retired. This all comes down to the proposition that a group of politicians can make wiser decisions about how to interfere in the marketplace than everyone who consumes and produces - the alleged wisdom of a few politicians compared to the billions of economic decisions we all make every day. This is the inherent problem with command economies... Our combined wisdom surpasses that of a ruling elite...

	09-03-2005 10:49									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Well to extent it is. If labor becomes more expensive, then theory predicts less incentive to higher workers. The question is how much theory is correct, on this the empirical evidence is mixed.

The theory is crap. Its more complicated then that. You can create a supply and demand curves with labor like you can with inanimate commodities.

	09-03-2005 10:57									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko The theory is crap. Its more complicated then that. You can create a supply and demand curves with labor like you can with inanimate commodities.

How so?

If workers become less expensive, isn't it now easier to hire more of them? If the wage rate goes up, isn't there now more incentive to being working then there was previously?

	09-03-2005 10:59									#194
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And do you think that theory is crap when dealing with capital as well? Of course real life is complicated. The theory is a simplification in order to allow study.

	09-03-2005 10:59									#195
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quote: I fail to see how you're looking at it in a real sense

Because I see it from his likely point of view, not my own emotional one. Realistically, he won't give a flip what the motive was, so it is net good. Doubly so figuring the donator saved money at the same time!

	09-03-2005 11:05									#196
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quote: What if you can afford them, until that is your boyfriend decides to abandon you? And what about those babies born into that life?

Bad choice in boyfriend. Sex's most obvious consequence other than an STD is pregnancy. *well, not mentioning SUPER obvious orgasm, but I digress...* So, having a possible lifetime link with someone who would abandon you shows a severe lack of common sense. Sorry.

The only ones I do feel sympathy for are the children. They didn't choose that their parents made bad choices. However, with private and local charities, I really see no need for FEDERAL welfare. It's too big and clumsy, it's just not efficient, empirically speaking.

	09-03-2005 11:07									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly You want to fix the minimum wage hike problem? It's incredibly simple: Right now, iirc, the base salary of a congressman is ~$155,000/year. A person working full time at minimum wage, by contrast, makes $10,712/year. In other words, the current minimum wage is about 7% of the salary of a congressman. Okay: fix it there, so that congress can't give itself a raise without raising the minimum wage. The minimum wage will be a living wage in no time.

Heh, this I agree with entirely, at least the point that congress shouldn't be allowed to vote themselves raises. Of course, if we ALL caused a big enough stink, perhaps they wouldn't. But the political apathy here is revolting.

What happened when it used to be a service. Beware the politician that WANTS the job. Our founding fathers would be turning in their graves if they knew our politicians spend MILLIONS to be elected.

	09-03-2005 11:09									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi How so? If workers become less expensive, isn't it now easier to hire more of them? If the wage rate goes up, isn't there now more incentive to being working then there was previously?

Because if the workers get paid more they buy more stuff and create more jobs that way, also if jobs pay more you could get better workers working longer hours (maybe) and thus increasing productivity. That and a possible increase in inflation. There's a dozen other additional complicating factors I could bring up. You can't treat the supply and demand of labor like the supply and demand of bananas.

	09-03-2005 11:16									#199
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quote: Because if the workers get paid more they buy more stuff and create more jobs that way, also if jobs pay more you could get better workers working longer hours (maybe) and thus increasing productivity. That and a possible increase in inflation. There's a dozen other additional complicating factors I could bring up. You can't treat the supply and demand of labor like the supply and demand of bananas.

If you have a price floor for bananas, you will have overproduction, which will result in more exports of bananas for cheaper prices. This may result in people overseas purchasing more bananas, resulting in a future generation which likes bananas more than the previous ones, while in the US less bananas may mean future generation will like them less than previous ones. You can't treat supply and demand of bananas like the supply and demand of (insert product here).



And working longer hours will not result in higher productivity. Productivity is about output in relation to input.

	09-03-2005 11:19									#200
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"Because if the workers get paid more they buy more stuff and create more jobs that way, also if jobs pay more you could get better workers working longer hours (maybe) and thus increasing productivity. That and a possible increase in inflation."

Those are general equilibrium arguments, which all can be (and are) applied to many different economic subjects. It doesn't change the basic theory, rather general equilibrium and efficency wage considerations are worked into it.

Your statement about more consumption meaning more jobs is most likely incorrect in the long run, rather it is savings and investment which drive long run economic growth. Better workers resulting from better pay is covered in the efficency wage theory, inflation is a standard general equilibrium situation which dampens the effect of a wage experience.

But the standard supply and demand curve, the very basic stuff is only wrong if people behave irrationaly. It is true, as you point out, for a deeper understanding of the labor market there are other variables you need to work in, and so most labor economists go well beyond the simple supply and demand curves. Still, the simple curves can work well for discussing the issue on a simple level.

	09-03-2005 11:26									#201
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quote: Bad choice in boyfriend. Sex's most obvious consequence other than an STD is pregnancy. *well, not mentioning SUPER obvious orgasm, but I digress...* So, having a possible lifetime link with someone who would abandon you shows a severe lack of common sense. Sorry.

OMR, so what are you going to do when you get screwed? A kind of attitude like that is just begging for karma to come back and bite. You get stuck with kids after your wife, out of nowhere, leaves. You get laid off while some ass executive is making off with millions of dollars and two secretaries. You're in a car wreck, get paralyzed, and lose everything.

Bad choices! Shouldn't've had sex. Shouldn't've worked for a large corporation. Shouldn't be driving a car. Don't expect the government to help you out. You should've known better than to make an obviously bad choice like that. Sit and suffer it out for the rest of your life, 'cause noone's coming to help if the government isn't.

quote: The only ones I do feel sympathy for are the children. They didn't choose that their parents made bad choices. However, with private and local charities, I really see no need for FEDERAL welfare. It's too big and clumsy, it's just not efficient, empirically speaking.

Obviously, if private and local charity worked, government redistribution programs would have never had to have been enacted in the first place.

	09-03-2005 11:37									#202
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quote: OMR, so what are you going to do when you get screwed? A kind of attitude like that is just begging for karma to come back and bite.

Definitely not whine and curse the stars/god/imps/rocks for "bad luck". I evaluate what I did wrong or didn't do right, and learn. **** has happened, but the fall out wouldn't have been so bad had I known then what I know now. It wasn't luck, as luck doesn't exist. Things happen, good and bad. Sometimes what you think is bad turns out good, and vice versa.

quote: You should've known better than to make an obviously bad choice like that. Sit and suffer it out for the rest of your life, 'cause noone's coming to help if the government isn't.

Man, you and the other one are a very dramatic duo. You guys write screenplays? Yes, bad choices will make you suffer. Rest of your life? If you're weak, or your mistake was that bad. *driving drunk*

quote: Obviously, if private and local charity worked, government redistribution programs would have never had to have been enacted in the first place.

Even with those, people have to want help. There is enough help out there right now, yet some still choose to live on the streets and not in shelters or halfway homes. To each their own. *shrugs* Not my life. And gov't redistribution programs are flawed for the basic reason they deny human/animal nature.

	09-03-2005 11:40									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi That you judge people to the level of scum doesn't reflect all that well on your own character.

Call 'em like I see 'em. And I've seen you judge folks before, so don't play Mr. Sanctimony with me.

If someone says things that indicate they are scum, I see no reason to believe otherwise. And saying that all poor people are lazy/stupid and therefore deserving of a menial existence is very much a scummy thing to say. It's the typical excuse put forward by selfish pigs.

	09-03-2005 11:47									#204
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I'm guessing this guy has been authenticated before. Any settler that's so incediniary would be a target for dancing, even with half a year under his belt.

	09-03-2005 12:31									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I seem to recall any number of hot button issues during the last election cycle. Chief amongst those was job creation and the outsourcing phenom. So what we have is a desire to increase minimum wage to accelerate that process and in so doing offer a viable if unenviable career path to people who decide not to take the necessary additional steps to upgrade their skill sets to allow them to be competitive in the world market. Seems to me we are incentiing the wrong thing.

Oh, please! How does someone outsource the fry cook at McDonalds or the cleaning lady at the local hotel? That's the type of jobs that get minimium wage.

	09-03-2005 12:40									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker The left endorses making no money and not supporting yourself? Yeah, tell the people who lose jobs or cant get them because their labor isn't worth $7/hour how much you care for them... Btw, whats the unemplyment rate in France now?

To be fair France's minimium wage is fairly modest and the main reason for the high unemploymnet is excessive regulation. It is very, very, very expensive & difficult to fire someone in that country so employers tend not to hire anyone unless it is totally unavoidable. Why hirer someone you can't fire when demand slacks?

The minimium wage is not the problem.

	09-03-2005 15:05									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Odin 1. He only became violent several years after they married as a result of alcoholism after he lost his job. 2. Yes, there are a lot of people who are successfull without a college education, but those are the lucky ones, most people like that work hard all thier lives and never get anywhere. Why? because there are lot more people than there are oppertunities available. "Successful" equals lucky without at least a 4-year degree. Most "rags to riches" stories are really "I got lucky" stories.

For every rags to riches story there are at least a thousand "from sh!t to a decent life" stories, and these require above all some self discipline. In many cases they also require an honest appraisal of where one comes from and a willingness to break from ones background when that background is rife with self-defeating behavior. It is a path open to all, though all cannot take it.

	09-03-2005 15:12									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Odin The point is, we are not in control of our lives. The workplace is a virtual dictatorship, and the government is controled by those same businesses who wish to see that the workplace remain a dictatorship.

Give me a break, comrade. No one has the energy, inclination or the power to keep you down, you're simply giving it to them. When you realize this you'll be on the path to making a positive difference. You'll also want to lose the paranoia eventually. Ghandi made a positive difference, but his paranoia ended up costing many thousands of people their lives. Believing the worst about people limits you more than them.

	09-03-2005 17:06									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Oh, please! How does someone outsource the fry cook at McDonalds or the cleaning lady at the local hotel? That's the type of jobs that get minimium wage.

The point as I reiterated to Az is that this move causes an inflation of wage rate at all lower levels not simply minimum wage.

	09-03-2005 17:19									#210
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There will be some inflkationary pressure but as we all keep hearing in the news the extreme competetion in the goods and services sector have robbed most companies of their pricing power. That means the inflationary pressure will be muted and partially off set by higher demand duing to consumers' rising income. There will still be some inflation but not as much as you are contending and it will be localized mainly in very low wage sectors.

Over all workers still come out a head dispite a marginal increase in inflationary pressure.