09-03-2005 19:44									#211
	Got spare money?

Oerdin,

The point being minimum wage increase means an overall increase of all wages. However for illustration sake, even if we were considering ONLY minimum wage positions the effect is negative towards growth.

Assume for example the business proposition of a potential new McDonalds/Walmart/XYZ company being opened.

Your total fixed expenses are: X
of which rent/licensing/utilities = $10000/mo
Your crew consists of:
20 full time entry level @ $5.15/hr = ~$18000/mo
4 assistant Managers @ $2500/mo
1 full time Manager @ 5000/mo

Benefits loading = another 33%

Therefore:
Monthly costs
= $10,000 rent/licensing/utilites
Direct Labor = $18,000
DL benefits = $ 6,000
Supervisory = $15,000
Sup Benefits = $ 5,000
Misc and other expenses = $5,000

total Fixed expenses = $59,000

Variable costs = $0.50/$1.00 (buns burgers, parts)

So in order to just break even sales needs to cover the fixed and variable costs resulting in required monthly sales of minimally $118000.

But as we know no one works to break even and investors don't invest in working capital and equipment for no return. Assuming a cost of capital for the new venture of 10% and initial outlay of $500,000 for franchise rights, equipment start up materials etc. That translates into a positive cash flow monthly of $9000. Sans tax implications that requires an additional $18000 in sales to cover the requirements of the investors. So lets for purpsoe of illustration simply say another $18000. Now monthly sales needs to be $136000.

Now inflate the 20 workers by 30% for a $7.00 wage and inflate the benny accordingly the new fixed costs number is $66200. In order to cover fixed and variable costs new sales number becomes $132400.

Wow what was a viable project before counting on sales of $136000/month all of a sudden beceomes decidedly un-investor friendly prospect.
Result no new XYZ company, no 20 employed minimum wagers, no 4 supervisors pulling in $30,000/annum and no 1 supervisor pulling in $60,000/annum.

	09-03-2005 20:06									#212
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Call 'em like I see 'em. And I've seen you judge folks before, so don't play Mr. Sanctimony with me. If someone says things that indicate they are scum, I see no reason to believe otherwise. And saying that all poor people are lazy/stupid and therefore deserving of a menial existence is very much a scummy thing to say. It's the typical excuse put forward by selfish pigs.

While I respect your refusal not to be PC *I dislike the whole idea of being PC and advocate saying what's on your mind*, I do think you making personal comments on someone you do not know not only ignorant but quite immature. You could say my comments are stupid, or cruel. But to think you know me enough to say something personal is just pompous.

I have given many more reasons why people are poor other than lazy/stupid, you just seem to need to ignore them so that you can try and argue against a position I do not hold. It happens when you cannot intellectually counter the real argument. And being an strict advocate of personal responsibility isn't scummy.

But while I respect your opinion, your delivery leaves much to desire. And I have made no personal judgements on anyone on this board, as I know no one here.

	09-03-2005 20:09									#213
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Sikander For every rags to riches story there are at least a thousand "from sh!t to a decent life" stories, and these require above all some self discipline. In many cases they also require an honest appraisal of where one comes from and a willingness to break from ones background when that background is rife with self-defeating behavior. It is a path open to all, though all cannot take it.

Obviously, the other side needs to ignore the vast middle ground to make their obviously wrong argument. Are these people making $40-$80K only partialy lucky? Were the stars mostly aligned correctly for them? Was their astrological sign advantageous to their plight? LOL!

	09-03-2005 20:11									#214
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Sikander Give me a break, comrade. No one has the energy, inclination or the power to keep you down, you're simply giving it to them. When you realize this you'll be on the path to making a positive difference. You'll also want to lose the paranoia eventually. Ghandi made a positive difference, but his paranoia ended up costing many thousands of people their lives. Believing the worst about people limits you more than them.

LOL! Well said. Weird comments like that make me think too many here have watched Matrix too many times, and haven't figured out that it is a fictional movie. I know HOllywood has gotten REALLY good with FX, but really.

	09-03-2005 20:17									#215
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Over all workers still come out a head dispite a marginal increase in inflationary pressure.

Yes, but non-workers like the vast number of retired people will be hurt. Of course, we can just raise the payroll tax to increase social security....

	09-03-2005 21:04									#216
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Late to the party, but one point. The US has had, for a long time, an underclass of illegal immigrants who quietly work for 2 bucks an hour off the record, or so. This isn't news. However, if we want to even have a smidgen of a chance of detecting "terrorists," we just can't have an entire class of people leaving under the law with no official names and no one to notice whether they live or die. It won't matter how draconian our surveillance is if the people they're looking for aren't even on the radar.

I agree with all of this, but note that the illegals are most often paid much more than $2 an hour, AFAIK. Before 9/11, those illegal immigrants would pay a broker for a fake Social Security number. Employers would look the other way if the documentation didn't look perfect, but they still had to follow labor laws with regard to minimum wage and the like (the labor market rate even for most illegals was above minimum wage, in any event). The sad fact was that the government didn't follow up and challenge the employers on those SSNs which were bad, because one branch of government didn't share information with another. I don't know how it has gone post-9/11.

The story with regard to illegal immigrants in DC is that they are "taking" the unskilled jobs of the blacks in most industries and that the blacks cannot get that crucial first couple of jobs. I haven't seen one black person on an office cleaning crew, for instance. All hispanic. One of the good things that I see with regard to the docents that the local business groups hired to pick up trash, give directions to tourists, direct traffic and the like, is that they are young blacks and that the few skills that they have (language, etc.) give them an advantage in this job over the immigrants.

	09-03-2005 21:26									#217
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Agathon I hope that thoughtful lefties like Che are taking names, so that the poor know who to burn when the time comes.

We aren't burning anyone. Nor hanging them, linging them up against the wall, or driving them into the desert. That kind of thinking gets us nowhere. If we want to create a more human society, we have to start with our "enemies." That doesn't mean allowing them to organize a counter revolution, but we don't have to opress them. That will only make them think they were right all along. Fact is, we're going to need them to make society work.

It's time for us commies to stop making those kind of jokes.

	09-03-2005 21:31									#218
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: It's time for us commies to stop making those kind of jokes.

Who said it was a joke?

There are some people who are pathologically incapable of living in a civilized society - they are called "criminals". It so happens that capitalism is more tolerant of them than communism, but they really are a nuisance and should just go.

	09-03-2005 21:32									#219
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We aren't burning anyone. Nor hanging them, linging them up against the wall, or driving them into the desert. That kind of thinking gets us nowhere. If we want to create a more human society, we have to start with our "enemies." That doesn't mean allowing them to organize a counter revolution, but we don't have to opress them. That will only make them think they were right all along. Fact is, we're going to need them to make society work. It's time for us commies to stop making those kind of jokes.

Its one of my pet peeves here that death threats have been so cavalierly been passed around under the guise of, I'm just joking.

	09-03-2005 21:33									#220
	Increase Your PM Length

Agathon isn't really a communist. He is a totalitarianist, with him as the totalitarian.

	09-03-2005 21:43									#221
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Agathon isn't really a communist. He is a totalitarianist, with him as the totalitarian.

No more than any other society that imprisons people for doing bad things.

Couldn't care less what you think in any case, I haven't seen a single Poly right winger post anything remotely clever about politics in the couple of years I have been here.

I suppose that isn't surprising, since being right wing is a mild form of mental illness.

	09-03-2005 21:47									#222
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by One_Mean_Rabbit with private and local charities, I really see no need for FEDERAL welfare. It's too big and clumsy, it's just not efficient, empirically speaking.

Says someone who's never had to depend on them, I assume. I've had far more success and quicker results with Federal and state agencies than with private charities. Private charities require you to do things like wait until 8am Friday to call for an appointment, even if you're out of food on Monday, whereas Public Aid will give you food stamps today. Chances are, however, you won't be able to get through to the charity, because demand far outweighs supply. Of course, this is only in the South, where supposedly people are more charitable than in the North. In Chicago, I never had these kinds of problems.

	09-03-2005 21:50									#223
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Agathon There are some people who are pathologically incapable of living in a civilized society - they are called "criminals."

There's a place for those people. It's called prison. There's no need for a death penalty except to sooth the blood thirst of the right-wingers, and they won't be in charge anymore.

	09-03-2005 21:50									#224
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Why are you trying to reason with him Che? Right-wingism is not a rational phenomenon.

	09-03-2005 21:51									#225
	Support Apolyton

at least our state is rasising the miniumu wage by $1 an hour.

I used to be against it, but it does seem to improve the economy. That's the main reason I voted for Kerry, because he said he'd raise the minimum wage by $2 an hour. And he said he wouldn't do no new taxes on those making less than 200g a year. That means he would have taxed the hell out of the rich, I have no problem with that.

I wish Kerry had won .

In any case the evidence is there. Democrats have been good for the economy in the 20th century (the Carter wasn't doing so well).

	09-03-2005 21:54									#226
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by One_Mean_Rabbit And gov't redistribution programs are flawed for the basic reason they deny human/animal nature.

You know, anyone who advocates social Darwinism and isn't a male WASP, is an idiot.

	09-03-2005 21:55									#227
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: There's a place for those people. It's called prison. There's no need for a death penalty except to sooth the blood thirst of the right-wingers, and they won't be in charge anymore.

Going to be a pretty big prison. Besides, you don't think that the nice fascists will actually let the poor folks take over peaceably, do you? The right, when it comes to the crunch (i.e. when it really matters) have no respect for human life - it's built into their ideology, whether they know it or not.

	09-03-2005 22:02									#228
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Agathon The right, when it comes to the crunch (i.e. when it really matters) have no respect for human life - it's built into their ideology, whether they know it or not.

And this differentiates the right from every other group that has a thirst for maintaining their power base in what way?

	09-03-2005 22:02									#229
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Going to be a pretty big prison. Besides, you don't think that the nice fascists will actually let the poor folks take over peaceably, do you? The right, when it comes to the crunch (i.e. when it really matters) have no respect for human life - it's built into their ideology, whether they know it or not.

I'm not talking about revolution or civil war. Asuming we have won and are in control, we're going to abolish the death penalty. None of this Pol Pot / anarchist **** of burning down the old society to make way for the new. It doesn't achieve the desiered goals and only truns you into a monster. We want a society with no monsters.

	09-03-2005 22:11									#230
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: I'm not talking about revolution or civil war. Asuming we have won and are in control, we're going to abolish the death penalty. None of this Pol Pot / anarchist **** of burning down the old society to make way for the new. It doesn't achieve the desiered goals and only truns you into a monster. We want a society with no monsters.

Che

quote: And gov't redistribution programs are flawed for the basic reason they deny human/animal nature.

ZOMFG MEDICNE IS FLAWED BECAUSE IT DENYS HUMAN NATUR. FAIT HILLING IS THE WAY TO REDEMTION.

	09-03-2005 22:14									#231
	Tired of ads?

quote: I'm not talking about revolution or civil war. Asuming we have won and are in control, we're going to abolish the death penalty. None of this Pol Pot / anarchist **** of burning down the old society to make way for the new. It doesn't achieve the desiered goals and only truns you into a monster. We want a society with no monsters.

Menshevik.

	09-03-2005 22:17									#232
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

What's next? "Trotskyte"?

	09-03-2005 22:42									#233
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: You know, anyone who advocates social Darwinism and isn't a male WASP, is an idiot.

Is it really so hard to leave personal remarks alone? Just because I don't agree with your opinion, doesn't make you an idiot. *shakes head*

	09-03-2005 22:43									#234
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: ZOMFG MEDICNE IS FLAWED BECAUSE IT DENYS HUMAN NATUR. FAIT HILLING IS THE WAY TO REDEMTION.

Wow, you really ought to lay off of the caffiene.

	09-03-2005 23:02									#235
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Wow, you really ought to lay off of the caffiene.

Ooooh, sweet. Avoided my point.

	09-03-2005 23:07									#236
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by One_Mean_Rabbit Is it really so hard to leave personal remarks alone?

If you're an advocate of Naziism, you ought at least not be a member of a group that Nazis plan on exterminating. To advocate an ideology that will result in your extintion is idiocy, regardless of any otherwise intelligent qualities you might have.

	09-03-2005 23:12									#237
	Remove this text

But on a more serious note, surely you don't think that the transfer of power will be a peaceful affair, Che?

What else are we supposed to do with the fascists who fight?

	09-03-2005 23:15									#238
	Increase Your PM Length

Che and Aggie, revolution doesn't work, it just leads to resentment. The way to win is through grass-roots reforms, informing the public, and the ballot box.

	09-03-2005 23:37									#239
	Inflate your Upload Space

The national minimum wage in the UK is £4.85 which is $9.35. It is set to go up this Oct to £5.05 ($9.73)

Every time, businesses and those with a vested interest to keep wages low bleat and whinge the way DanS is bleating and whingeing about how it will affect the economy etc - and it doesn't!

So how is it that a country with an inferior economy to the US like the UK can afford to set a mininum wage that is almost twice that of the US and get away with it?

The minimum wage is about allowing the poorest echelons of our society to support themselves with dignity, whilst channeling a small amount of the huge profits of the fat cats that grow rich and greedy off their hard work in a fairer manner.

There I was thinking that the Civil War war fought in the main part to defeat slavery.

People like DanS seem to have a problem with that...

	09-03-2005 23:39									#240
	Got spare money?

You were misinformed about the civil war and slavery bit.