09-03-2005 23:40									#241
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I have a strong feeling that socialism would be achieved at the point where humanity itself would be on a very strong transformation phase. In the farthest future, technology would lead humanity to transcendence of the human form, and power of thought. I am not of fan of it, since I adore the human form, and would simply want to pour much more resources of physical and intellectual capacity into the same frame, but this is where everything seems to be heading.

It would be a bizzare state that both ( contemporary ) communist and libertarian alike would adore.

	09-03-2005 23:49									#242
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quote: Originally posted by pchang You were misinformed about the civil war and slavery bit.

So you are telling me that the root of all of the problems that precipitated the Civil War was not the institution of slavery?

So what was the root cause then?

	09-03-2005 23:49									#243
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I think overproduction cause by ever-increasing efficiency created by new technology will make a revolution in how the market works inevitable. Uber-capitalist Neo-Liberals like Fukuyama who think we are ate the "End of History" need some mental help. I don't adhere strictly to the Marxist view of history (which I find too simplistic), but I do think the increase of efficency will make unemployment go up enough that it will make the traditional conception of the market untenable.

	09-03-2005 23:55									#244
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Doesn't matter. It will simply switch slowly to a planned economy of the fascist style.

	09-03-2005 23:56									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon But on a more serious note, surely you don't think that the transfer of power will be a peaceful affair, Che? What else are we supposed to do with the fascists who fight?

quote: Originally posted by Agathon The right, when it comes to the crunch (i.e. when it really matters) have no respect for human life - it's built into their ideology, whether they know it or not. quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe And this differentiates the right from every other group that has a thirst for maintaining their power base in what way?

	09-03-2005 23:57									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Doesn't matter. It will simply switch slowly to a planned economy of the fascist style.

Pessimist.

	10-03-2005 00:01									#247
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Oh no, I am not. I am sure everything will turn out just great, in the end. Not soon, though. Hell, even in a crazy transcendant universe with billions upon billions of consciousnesses, and animals would actually have feelings, I am sure you would be able to find enough humanist fetishists to inhabit an entire planet, and live there in the manner of startrek.

	10-03-2005 00:11									#248
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS So you are telling me that the root of all of the problems that precipitated the Civil War was not the institution of slavery? So what was the root cause then?

The root cause was a fight over who should have more power, the federal government or the individual states.

	10-03-2005 00:12									#249
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@ Ogie.

It's one thing to have a group of people engage in violence because they wish to end oppression, and another thing for a different group of people (meaning you and your ilk) to take up guns for selfish reasons.

On a serious note, I don't really like the idea of killing people, but if it is the only way to a good outcome, then it's justifiable. That's not the same as the right wing indifference to human life for selfish gain.

	10-03-2005 00:15									#250
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon On a serious note, I don't really like the idea of killing people, but if it is the only way to a good outcome, then it's justifiable.

So the ends justify the means? It can only backfire by pissing people off.

	10-03-2005 00:17									#251
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@ Aggie - the definer of "good" outcomes.

	10-03-2005 00:24									#252
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quote: To be fair France's minimium wage is fairly modest and the main reason for the high unemploymnet is excessive regulation. It is very, very, very expensive & difficult to fire someone in that country so employers tend not to hire anyone unless it is totally unavoidable.

Anyone wanting to estimate the effect of a significantly higher NMW could look to the experience of France as an indicator. There, the minimum is set at roughly £4.10 per hour, equal to around 57% of male median pay. The OECD, in its evidence to the Low Pay Commission, reported that the high rate in France had produced a significant negative impact on youth employment, and in some cases on overall employment.

Don't know the currency equivelant but it sounds like France's isn't modest. Factor in lengthy paid vacations, etc, and I suspect the min wage is rather high in France. Btw, this blurb above was done a few years ago when the UK had a lower NMW than France so I don't know the current rate. And I'd call a NMW a regulation even if the French have found other ways to shoot themselves in the foot.

	10-03-2005 01:05									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon But on a more serious note, surely you don't think that the transfer of power will be a peaceful affair, Che? What else are we supposed to do with the fascists who fight?

No, I don't think the transfer of power will be peaceful. Obviously, when fighting in actual combat, some killing will be required. This is not something to which I look forward, cuz killing is bad. This doesn't mean we round people up and kill them for opposing the new society. When you talking about shooting, burning, or hanging people, you're talking about executions, not military combat. You can't build a society based on the sanctity of human life on a foundation of corpses.

quote: Originally posted by Odin Che and Aggie, revolution doesn't work, it just leads to resentment. The way to win is through grass-roots reforms, informing the public, and the ballot box.

Yeah, like that's ever worked. Maybe if we wanted to create a kinder, less corrupt capitalist society. The only to overthrow capitalism is revolution. It cannot be reformed away.

This doesn't mean the revolution has to be violent, but that's largely up to would be counter-revolutionaries. They likely will not respect the ballot should it turn against them. EVERY single time they have revolted and they've suceeded in destroying the would be reformers. I see no reason to think the future would be different. As for resentment, I don't care if the capitalists resent us. I resent them.

	10-03-2005 01:13									#254
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, I don't think the transfer of power will be peaceful. Obviously, when fighting in actual combat, some killing will be required. This is not something to which I look forward, cuz killing is bad. This doesn't mean we round people up and kill them for opposing the new society. When you talking about shooting, burning, or hanging people, you're talking about executions, not military combat. You can't build a society based on the sanctity of human life on a foundation of corpses.

[spittle ridden rant]
BUT ITS FOR TEH GREATER GOOD CAN'T YOU SEE THAT. LONG LIVE TEH REVOLUCION! Kill teh MAN!

[/end spittle ridden rant]

Aggie puts Che on his list of chief opponents to be bumped off

	10-03-2005 01:42									#255
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killing teh man

	10-03-2005 01:44									#256
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I'd rather dance than kill.




Unless it's killing a beer.

	10-03-2005 01:52									#257
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or killing a fat spliff

	10-03-2005 01:54									#258
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I could probably agree to that.

	10-03-2005 02:31									#260
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quote: When you talking about shooting, burning, or hanging people, you're talking about executions, not military combat.

Wartime executions, yes.

I'm afraid I don't share your liberal squeamishness about what must be done.

And the correct order is shooting, hanging and then burning. The idea is to maximize the fun value of the execution.

quote: So the ends justify the means?

I wish people would stop saying retarded stuff like this. What you really mean is "does this end justify this means in view of other ends we might have".

What else would justify any means other than some end?

	10-03-2005 02:34									#261
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[deja vu]

And so the inevitable grab for ideological power resumes. Long live the revolucion. death to the squeamish, death to teh ideologically impure.

[/deja vu]

	10-03-2005 02:40									#262
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quote: And so the inevitable grab for ideological power resumes. Long live the revolucion. death to the squeamish, death to teh ideologically impure

Are you a Stalinist?

Not "death to teh ideologically impure", but "re-education camps for teh ideologically impure".

Che needn't cry - re-education in Soviet Agathonia involves being ravished by beautiful state provided hookers for five hours a day.

We will overcome their scruples with decadence!!!

	10-03-2005 02:44									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Are you a Stalinist?

Anything but, fortunately I'll be long dead before teh inevitable hell you loving refer to.

	10-03-2005 02:56									#264
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quote: Anything but, fortunately I'll be long dead before teh inevitable hell you loving refer to.

Well, if I see a mob stringing you up, I'll ask them to stop.

	10-03-2005 03:23									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Anything but, fortunately I'll be long dead before teh inevitable hell you loving refer to. Well, if I see a mob stringing you up, I'll ask them to stop.

Don't do me any favors, no need you going out on a limb before teh rabid fanatical faithful.

	10-03-2005 03:40									#266
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Che needn't cry - re-education in Soviet Agathonia involves being ravished by beautiful state provided hookers for five hours a day. We will overcome their scruples with decadence!!!

Who said he never learned anything from the righties? This a page right out of Gitmo complete with Bimbos.

	10-03-2005 03:43									#267
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You know, anyone who advocates social Darwinism and isn't a male WASP, is an idiot.

Lets hear it for us White Anglo-Saxon Protestants! WOOT!

	10-03-2005 03:43									#268
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hookers

	10-03-2005 03:44									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Lets hear it for us White Anglo-Saxon Protestants! WOOT!

We rule the world.

	10-03-2005 03:50									#270
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quote: Originally posted by pchang You were misinformed about the civil war and slavery bit.

The Civil War was started based upon State's Rights but Linclon skillfully recast the war away from simple politics and towards a great moral crusade to end slavery. He was right to give the war such higher meaning and he succeeded in his goal.

Granted he wasn't always such a moralist and he was quoted often saying that if he could end the rebellion without freeing any slaves he would, if he could end the rebellion by freeing every slave he would, and if he could end the rebellion by freeing some and leaving others in bondage then he'd do that to. His priority was to end the war successfully.