11-03-2005 10:37									#1
	Q: What are the best PBEMs going? Support Apolyton

Just as a matter of interest, which of the PBEMs out there are going strong? A couple of the ones I'm in are starting to get interesting (and are still alive), but I assume that there are some out there that are pretty intense.

What makes for a great PBEM game? How do you make sure the players stick with it? I am still not sure of how to steer through the Scylla and Charybdis of cooperation versus opposition... surely there have been some outstanding examples thus far.

Also, other than unique games like: [EDIT: Iron Civer, of course], the 'poly-CFC WWII challenge, the several AU PBEMs, and some others (can we say 'evisceration' ), there doesn't seem to be much reporting/DARs out there... anything we can do about that? [Another EDIT: I admit I am not on top of the whole of PBEM activity]. I've been surprised at how much interest there has been in the WWII game.

And last but not least, I've got one game (slowly) going over at the Civ3Players Ladder League... and there have been hints that a team competition (i.e., PBEM, all human, locked alliances, us versus them) might be welcome! Aside frrom their own stalwarts, there are some fence-straddlers that might be fun to play with (hint hint: Fried-Psitalon, Motown Dennis).

Sorry if I'm rambling about a bit, but PBEM is certainly the most active aspect of C3 on 'poly these days, and it occurred to me that just banging away on the 'Tracker' threads might be less than we could be doing.

	11-03-2005 15:22									#2
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There was some interesting end of game commentary in the only competitive PBEM I've wrapped up. I might just have to see if I can dig up some screenies to add to that thread...

Have you ever checked out the original Strat-forum PTW games with alexman, Dom, Sir Ralph, etc. ? There were some nice AARs from those.

For more current events, the Tarzan game had been moving along for a while with a bunch of good ol' Poly stalwarts and a very novel (and challenging) scenario, but it has started to sputter in the last month.

The Iron Civer has been an attempt to navigate through another rock/hardplace for PBEMs; provide the games' with meta-structure to keep them progressing enough to keep players interested, but not to the point of removing the spontaneous fun and wide appeal of playing. It worked well once, but the winds have so far been unfavorable for a return voyage...

One thing that might be taken from the IC to help some regular games progress would be a third-party admin to actively monitor the tracking thread and prompt players after a certain amount of time.

Bring on the ladder-day saints...

	11-03-2005 21:34									#3
	Got spare money?

Hmmm. have you been to MZO? It's small community, but some PBEMers are quite dedicated and certainly the Pong MARs never disappoint. I don't really have any 'poly PBEMs that are going very strongly ATM. Actually, I do have two that started at 'poly (both are with the same two opponents in the same order, so they move as one), but we've long since ditched our tracking thread and there's nothing the aprticualrly ties it to here anymore. IT moves very well, we often get two or three turns a day, and I'd say on the whole we average one a day. It started around the same time as our Madness game, and its now around 400BC. Draw your own conclusions . Also, the some of the C3C scenarios make for some very interesting games, IME. I'm in the middle of RoR and Meso PBEMs, and they are both very interesting, fairly even, and very dynamic.

	11-03-2005 21:52									#4
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Yes - there is a huge amount of activity in this forum. The Census last summer/fall confirmed this, and it has only increased since then.

Back then - the top games were:

5 Votes AU601
5 Votes Mesopotamea
4 Votes All Day Round
3 Votes Grand Passage
3 Votes Frog Stomp
3 Votes 2-A-Day

As to the team game - Clash of Continents has a four on four (Asian civs vs European civs). It has had a slow start but looks promising as a format.

The two-civs per player (Dual Dynasty, Rusty Nails, etc) are another way of adding interest and complexity to the game.

Paddy also has his twisted sister game(s) with unusual alliances.

Silent pbems have their following as well. I am involved in 4 of them.

And conquest-based games continue to be a fan favourite. I can think of the mesopotamea game won by Rhoth, the first Grand Passage game, also won by Rhoth, The Rise of Rome scenario, the various crusades games, and more recently, the rip-roaring Diplomacy in another age (Napoleaonic game).

It might be helpful for all if a short description of each type of game was written up, so others could try them out.

I am involved in 40+ games - all of which have some merit to them. Some are absolutely great games - beacuse of the concept, the set-up, the players, the diplomacy, or some combination thereof.

I have mixed feelings about DAR's and the like. I have a pile of games on the go - and am currently the player in 3 demo games. If, with the limited time I have, it comes down to playing games or writing about them, give me the playing any day.

That being said, I can truly see the merit in discussing how certain game formats work - or do not work - and what makes a PBEM game fun and competitive. That will help all of us when we are setting up new games.

Last edited by Beta on 11-03-2005 at 22:00

	11-03-2005 22:40									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Beta And conquest-based games continue to be a fan favourite. I can think of the mesopotamea game won by Rhoth, the first Grand Passage game, also won by Rhoth,

Those were two of my favorites. Though not just because I won both, but because they both moved along very quickly in most cases. In both cases I did a post-win mini AAR about my overarching strategies. For the Grand Passage game (Age of Discovery conquest) it caused the rest of the players to want to do another one, though that died when con left. I'm also involved in another Mesopotamia game now though it's just getting back on track since con left.

The 1on1 AU game I played a while back with Beta was quite a lot of fun, though it eventually got a bit time consuming as well since we were trying to play several turns each night. As fun as that was, I wasn't sorry to see it end when it did. I also wrote an ongoing DAR with that game about my strategies.

The Dual Dynasty game (two civs per player) is also a current favorite of mine because it mostly moves along fairly quickly with only a few stops here and there.

I was a part of one of Paddy's Twisted Sister (two civs, weird alliances) games and though it died a quick death (through no fault of Paddy's), it was an interesting concept as well.

All in all though, I think the single most defining reason for me enjoying a game is whether it moves along quickly. If you're getting a save once a week then there is a bit of, "what the heck did I do last turn" that doesn't happen when you're getting a save every day.

The players of the game would be a close second because if you have good players that you like and can trash talk with then the game is fun. Despite the overly crappy start that was handed to me in the Random Random game I've been enjoying it because of the players and the trash talk. I'll be sorry to leave that one soon (Beta attacked me before I could grow strong enough to adequately defend against him...he might finally get the upper hand against me in a game. )

	15-03-2005 00:48									#6
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I guess no one else has any good PBEMs going. How sad.

	15-03-2005 00:59									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

It seems epic games need time to get things going. Scenarios, now that is a whole different world (of pain ).

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...30&pagenumber=1
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...30&pagenumber=1

	15-03-2005 01:18									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I dropped most of my PBEMs, I am unhappy about that. I had a chance to win all of them. I had set up a good industrial base in each one.

---

paddy, sory about that ol' mate. Wont happen again.

Last edited by Krill on 17-03-2005 at 17:49

	17-03-2005 12:41									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Krill

please accept my apology

I wrote this here then sent it as a pm... was a private matter as we are discussing

This is my stupidity that this posted openly... and then the post gods got me good witha double post of my error...

too tired to be nice... to stupid to be polite

Paddy

Last edited by Paddy the Scot on 17-03-2005 at 14:58

	17-03-2005 12:41									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

amazing how when I make a public specticale of myself that it double posts

again my apologies Krill. My error indeed

Paddy

Last edited by Paddy the Scot on 17-03-2005 at 14:59

	17-03-2005 12:46									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Theseus,

lots of great games in the forum... way too many I must admit

The Twisted Sister series tickle my fancy indeed

Just about every game set in the Napoleonic Scenario are right up there too

The Clash 4 x 4 is a great game

Yet I must agree with the lads, when you have a good committed crew, who play often and keep the turn moving, through in so atmosphere in the thread, and a great game is to be had just about every time... these are the games that light up my eyes when I see them in my in box

ahhh chess with millions of pieces, and upto 8 human players

well until you get to the Group Demo Games.... then the pbem concept takes on so so many more human players indeed

	24-03-2005 02:26									#12
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This game has been highly enlightening for myself

My first succession game
http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdis...?s=&forumid=154

	24-03-2005 09:36									#13
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The various expansionist-related games were and are quite fun ... Expanding, until Eliitmees went MIA (just about to pick up again); Expansionist, which moved faster with only 4 players, now 3; and the new Fast and Loose which is a similar concept.

They share a common concept - adding Expansionist to stock civs, allowing for a faster start to a game and play on a slightly larger than normal map without losing game speed. Some have AP on, some have it off - it lends itself well to AP for those of us who like it, but it's not necessary.

	24-03-2005 10:21									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I am cursed.

All PBEMs I'm involved in eventually degenerate into turn-a-week or worse, then stop altogether.

One game I'm involved in (started over at the Civ3Players Ladder site) actually came back from the dead, so I'm quite happy about that.

Although I've threatened to, I've never been the first to actually quit a game. To be honest, I did quit one game (Strat Forum 3, I think), but only because it was a seriously foregone conclusion.

If anyone is looking for a PBEM player that plays fast and wants to actually get somewhere, my PM box is not-full.

Last edited by Dominae on 24-03-2005 at 22:29

	24-03-2005 18:40									#15
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I don't start many PBEMs often anymore, I have quite a few now, but occasionally one tickles my fancy (groucho), and if one does, I'll try to PBEM yo to get you invovled. It's not a guarantee, but I would say most (66%+) of the games I've started are still going/completed. Some do move slowly, but they still manage to trickle along.

	24-03-2005 19:18									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Best game I'm in is the Mass Diplomatic Game over on MZO. It's got a full compliment of 8 players and going at very nice a turn/weekday clip, ENFORCED. Players are skipped if they don't make their scheduled play time. And I say this having 0 chance to win at all, having been struck with disease 3 times before my first settler. Damn floodplain.

The SUAP game I replaced Krill in shows promise just for being good moving and a differing concept of not being allowed to talk to each other out of game at all.

IDG Blue has promise, but is moves slow at times.

Newb PBEM on MZO is a nice moving game with 3 players on tiny map.

Most others have died or move so slow I regularly forget what the hell I am planning.

I say, for me, speed is the most important component to staying interested in a game. I deal with bad luck and inferior starting positions in stride, but have a hard time with slow movers.

	24-03-2005 22:26									#17
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx I say, for me, speed is the most important component to staying interested in a game. I deal with bad luck and inferior starting positions in stride, but have a hard time with slow movers.

Yeah me too. Early on when I started with C3C PBEMs I had several die (including one with Dom), but then I started trying to get into PBEMs with only the hardcore PBEMers (Paddy, Beta, etc.). Some of my games have died (several of the ones conmcb25 was in) and several have were dead for a while before being picked back up by a replacement player (again several of the ones conmcb25 was in), but I've had several games finish up and most of my others tend to move right along except when someone is gone for a few days (with Beta's mini-vacation this weekend all of my PBEMs but one will stop )

	25-03-2005 00:36									#18
	Tired of ads?

Yeah, ghengis and con killed most of the ones I was in too.

Replacements are difficult to find unfortunately.

	25-03-2005 01:26									#19
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Arnelos killed one of mine where I had replaced con

	25-03-2005 14:33									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It has been mentioned by several, the things that make PBEM-games enjoyable to me:

1. Diplomacy/ having human opponents
Trading is a totally different concept all together in PBEM's. Furthermore a crapy start does not necesarily doom your chances. Nor will a great start ensure victory, as big alliances cab arise.

2. Speed of the game
Although I'm already happy when a game is just moving, speed adds to the pleasure

3. Community
Getting to know the people in games makes the game even more personal. And like I once told beta:'I speak more to you than to my mother (here's your 3rd save today from me)'

4. 1 turn
Disabling the 1 more turn(s) compared to a SP game is not always fun, but it sure is a blessing. When the saves are played I just go to bed, instead of noticing that that 1 more turn took several hours.


The games
C3CDG: Eve of Destruction 3100 BC 9.5 h/team
PTW classics 270 AD 10.0 h/player
Expanding Game 1600 BC 12.2 h/player
Europe in flames 450 BC 12.6 h/player
Rapid fire 3550 BC 15.8 h/player
Random-Random PBEM 510 BC 16.9 h/player
European C3C PBEM 690 BC 17.3 h/player
In The Mood 1275 BC 19.5 h/player
Zulu Dawn 3050 BC 20.4 h/player
Clash of Titans 3350 BC 23.4 h/player
Silent PBEM: Gunboat Diplo 1790 BC 23.7 h/player
The five continents of Eden 1650 BC 25.6 h/player

Games that have been going for a while are most interesting. For that reason games with a starter pack get going the fastest. Larger maps are not very adequate for PBEM's, they need even more times to get going.