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aneeshm is offline aneeshm
Chieftain
Indore , Madhya Pradesh
Jul 2001
time: 11:02
  Old Post 13-03-2005 14:40
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Is roboticisation of jobs ethical ? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

There is an issue that I have thought may be important in future .

Methods and AI are evolving to a point where we may have humaniform robots capable of doing most manual labour and repetitive jobs within the next 20 to 30 years . The processing power required will have arrived by then , and the prototypes for neural networks capable of learning and evolving are already here .

If more is spent on this technology , robots will become capable of replacing unskilled and semi-skilled manual labour ( one where no deep analytical thinking is involved , and where the variations ae few ) . We will also have robots capable of adapting and learning from past problems , as neural nets are already doing . Thus , a robots imprinted with oly the basic ability to learn , and apply that learning willl be in priduction not too far off . THey will also be vastly cheaper than an average worker .

Is it ethical , then , for employers to completely replace low and semi-skilled human labour ( cashiers , receptionists , manual labourers , waiters , secretaries , etc. ) with robot labour as soon as it becomes available ? This will be accomplished within five to ten years , will lead to a collapse of social security , even if full severance benifits are given to said workers .

I say it is perfectly fine to replace humans when possible/necessary/benificial . What do you say ?

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 14:44 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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This has been happening since the late 19th century when the industrial revolution was in full force and manufacturing and farm machinery took over for field labor.

It's an ongoing issue for many many years. They will do it.


Most of the grocery stores around here now have an autocheckout feature, so there is no cashiere involved in the process.

They will do it whether or not it is ethical.

A cold blooded heartless capitalist like yourself will welcome this change, citing cost savings that are passed on to the consumer, and also allowing the business to use its human resources for other jobs.

This SHOULD be an ethical model, since the cost savings are SUPPOSED to be passed on to consumers, the business, and the stockholders, but this is not the case anymore, when CEO salaries are skyrocketing, being 300 times more than the average line worker.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 14:46
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AI

other robotification

Combat Ingrid is offline Combat Ingrid
Chieftain
Satan's Majestic Empire
Nov 2001
time: 06:32
Thumbs down  Old Post 13-03-2005 16:50
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People are idiots.
We have all those machines that work for us and make our life easier and more comfortable, and still we work and stress so much we get sick from it

(of course, this is necessary to keep our economy growing; which is by far the most important thing in life)

Flandrien is offline Flandrien
King
Belgium
May 2000
time: 06:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 17:02
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Re: Is roboticisation of jobs ethical ? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote:
Originally posted by aneeshm
... replace low and semi-skilled human labour ( cashiers , ...


Like Ted already said, cashiers are already being replaced at this moment.

lnk

aneeshm is offline aneeshm
Chieftain
Indore , Madhya Pradesh
Jul 2001
time: 11:02
  Old Post 13-03-2005 17:04
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My dear Ted , I am not cold-blooded by any standard . Indeed , it is my belief that the business that passes the benifits on to its customers is one who will survive , because it offers better things for a lower price - rule of the market . I have seen it happening in my country . I have seen how the telecom giants of India bought the mobile phone within reach of some of poorest .

And another thing - won't human jobs just be shifted up the value chain , as has been happening till now ?

Flandrien is offline Flandrien
King
Belgium
May 2000
time: 06:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 17:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Combat Ingrid
People are idiots.
We have all those machines that work for us and make our life easier and more comfortable, and still we work and stress so much we get sick from it

(of course, this is necessary to keep our economy growing; which is by far the most important thing in life)



The problem is that all this technology allows us to work less. But in stead of working less, we have fewer people working even harder, in fear of losing their job, like all the rest of their former colleagues.

aneeshm is offline aneeshm
Chieftain
Indore , Madhya Pradesh
Jul 2001
time: 11:02
  Old Post 13-03-2005 17:09
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If that were true , then the only safe job in the world would be the analytical mathematician behind robot design .

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 17:12
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This is inevitable - automations (robotics and other means) has been replacing unskilled human labour. On one hand, this increases productivity for each individual, unfortunately employers can fire workers while maintaining an increase in output.

Starchild is offline Starchild
Emperor
a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
Jan 1970
time: 00:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 17:41
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Human jobs will either get increasingly specialised or service based or we'll finally have to rid ourselves of this silly notion of people needing to work

Flandrien is offline Flandrien
King
Belgium
May 2000
time: 06:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 18:06
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think there will always be human bartenders

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 18:16
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No problem with that, if it takes people away from the more mundane, demoralising jobs, it is a good thing. However I have very little faith in the present system to use this effectively. In reality it should be used to allow humans to pursue far more important and creative tasks and occupations. In reality it will just be used to cut costs and throw people on the scrapheap.

We come back to that old dilemma, it's not the technology itself, but it's application...

VJ is offline VJ
Prince
Helsinki
Dec 2001
time: 07:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 19:48
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Knee-jerk pseudo-intellectual communists who oppose this 'roboticisation', as you call it, need to look at the big bicture: in the society as a whole, people need to do less work for the same results.

Apart from possible further dependancy from fossil fuels, I can't even imagine any rational negative aspects of this process.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
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  Old Post 13-03-2005 20:06
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I don't think the problem is with communists but with how capitalism will use it. More done for less effort is always It can be used to raise productivity or give people more time to themselves. However in the current order the former is the case and only that.

VJ is offline VJ
Prince
Helsinki
Dec 2001
time: 07:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 20:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Provost Harrison
I don't think the problem is with communists

I agree, there is no real problem IMO.

quote:
It can be used to raise productivity or give people more time to themselves. However in the current order the former is the case and only that.

I'm sorry, this is not true. It does both.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
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Feb 2000
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  Old Post 13-03-2005 20:11
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It is capable of doing both. In reality I don't think people have really seen the benefit. Since automation we have seen productivity skyrocket but working lifestyle has barely changed, if not become more stressful.

VJ is offline VJ
Prince
Helsinki
Dec 2001
time: 07:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 20:17
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quote:
In reality I don't think people have really seen the benefit.

That could be true, depends on the country.

I don't really have anything to debate you with since we seem to agree all the time, but let me just ask you one more question:

quote:
Since automation we have seen productivity skyrocket but working lifestyle has barely changed, if not become more stressful.

So you'd be perfectly willing to change your current job and wage to ones with late-19th century coal miners which did 12+ hour shifts?

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 20:22
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Of course not,I suppose in that respect it has made life a lot easier and safer, I'd just like to see a further cut in working hours for everyone or see the advantages be used in the developing world to give them a decent standard of living.

And when I mean about the lifestyle changes, I forgot to mention over the past few decades...

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 20:36
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The loss of jobs due to technology is what shows capitalism's main flaw. Idealy, when productivity increases, people should have to work less. In capitalism, the opposite happens, people are working just as long, but there are less people working.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 20:40
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Re: Is roboticisation of jobs ethical ? Get a bigger avatar today!

Why the hell not?

Is the plow ethical?

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 20:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
The loss of jobs due to technology is what shows capitalism's main flaw. Idealy, when productivity increases, people should have to work less. In capitalism, the opposite happens, people are working just as long, but there are less people working.


Because of course unemployment has shot WAY up since the industrial revolution... oh, wait.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 20:44
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Well it is harder to classify but even now there should be no reason for unemployment except for the convenience it affords industry in being able to threaten it's workers with 'someone else being able to do their work', even with high levels of automation. There is so much that needs doing on our planet that any extra productivity is a welcome bonus.

Adagio is offline Adagio

Emperor

Jun 2001
time: 06:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 20:51
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For some reason I doubt prostetutes and the liking to fear loosing their jobs to robots

If the companies would just give their employees less time to work while having more employees I don't see a problem with this, though for some reason I doubt this will happen unless some laws to help this will be made

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 21:19
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Roboticisation is an inherently good thing as long as the robots aren't intelligent enough to rebel against their human masters, or to evolve in such a fashion.

The huge difference between today and the late 18th century is technology. Thanks to technology, our life is more comfortable and healthy than ever in human history. There are only extremely few areas in the world that saw absolutely no net positive impact from technology: even the average African (in peaceful times) has access to more comfort than his pendant of a few centuries back.

Thanks to technology, there was less human genius wasted on the plow, and there was less human genius wasted on the machine-tool. Hopefully, there'll be soon less human genius wasted on operating the cashier.

However, while automation is inherently good in the long run, it does pose serious short-run problems. Unskilled workers, after having been laid off, rarely find better jobs, and must often settle for jobs where the conditions are actually much worse. And that's when they find a job at all. Automation can lead to terrible life conditions for a whole generation (like the early 19th century peasants forced to go to the city). That's why history has shown many skeptics against automation, like the Luddites.

The capitalists alone cannot contribute to solving the transition problem: their sole responsibility is to make profit, and they don't need to care of their fired employees to that effect. That's why a collective effort is needed to bring the unskilled in more skilled jobs. The State has to provide efficient education to all (and not only to the young generation), it has to financially help the fired ones while they're still in transition, and it has to protect those who are too old to learn a new job.

That's how you can have a humane economic transition, that doesn't sacrifice entire generations to productivity gains.

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 21:48 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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I see mass robotization as a very good thing. The mass movement of humanity into intellectual tasks, and the creation of a vast leisure class are key to the future of socialism.

The difference between an AI and a human is that the AI isn't an animal. It has no need for our crude instincts of pain, fun, taboo, and sex. Expecting the robots to rise up as enslaved people would betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the world.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 21:53 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by VJ
So you'd be perfectly willing to change your current job and wage to ones with late-19th century coal miners which did 12+ hour shifts?


The difference is that the capitalists had to be forced by the workers to let them work less hours. They didn't do it out of the goodness of their hearts.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 21:58
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quote:
Is roboticisation of jobs ethical ?


Yes.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 13-03-2005 21:59 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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It is neither ethical nor unethical.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 21:59
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quote:
Originally posted by St Leo
I see mass robotization as a very good thing. The mass movement of humanity into intellectual tasks, and the creation of a vast leisure class are key to the future of socialism.


Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 13-03-2005 22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The difference is that the capitalists had to be forced by the workers to let them work less hours. They didn't do it out of the goodness of their hearts.


Yeah, they did it out of concern for their bottom line. So?

 
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