15-03-2005 00:18									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller you get a check on your license saying that you are financially independent this means that your parents can't call you a dependent and the like... they alreay have to check your license for you to buy alcohol or cigs, why not have a thing saying whether you are financially independent or not? Jon Miller

	15-03-2005 00:20									#32
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Even better, why require an age limit for buying tobacco or alcohol at all? This way, stores can sell to whomever they please, and can refuse to sell to whomever they please.

Some people may believe that kids lack the maturity to make the decision whether or not to use those substances.

	15-03-2005 00:20									#33
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JM's method works for me.

	15-03-2005 00:22									#34
	Re: Age rights- draw your lines Increase the size of your Attachments

1- Leave full-time education.
16

2- Drive a car.
16

3- Drive a heavy goods vehicle or bus.
18

4- Work a 12-hour shift down a coal mine.
18

5- Have sex.
16

6- Buy porn.
16

7- Appear in porn in an obvious state of physical arousal.
18

8- Get married.
18

9- See front-line service in the army.
21

10- Own a 12-bore shotgun.
18

11- Vote.
18

12- Become President.
30

13- Have a credit card, personal loan or mortgage.
18

14- Adopt children.
24

15- Gamble.
18

16- Get executed.
16

17- Buy a pet. Like a Pit Bull or a Python, or something.
??? any age...

	15-03-2005 00:24									#35
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse This makes no sense. So you can appear in porn at the age of 16, but you can only be filmed doing it with other 16 year olds? Sort of silly...

16, 17, and 18-year-olds. If watching teens do it with each other doesn't excite anyone, it's their problem.

	15-03-2005 00:27									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Basically, an 18-year old is not fully invested in the society. I think 18-years old may own property, but in most instances don't. Something less than half are dependent on their parents while in college as well.

Their parents are not legally obligated to support them, unlike when they are below 18.

As I said, they have the same legal responsibilities as everybody else. They must have the same legal rights.

Their suitability to become President is another matter entirely. Do you really think the general public will elect an 18 year-old whose parents are paying for his college tuition to the office of President?

	15-03-2005 00:28									#37
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quote: Some people may believe that kids lack the maturity to make the decision whether or not to use those substances.

Well, the only people who can conceivably be able to judge that and make that decision are the child's parents, and if parents let their children run around on their own with enough money to buy alcohol, then I would say that the parents are implying their consent, at least as far as a shop clerk is concerned.

Granted, it's impossible for parents to keep track of their kids 100% of the time, but at the same time, more concerned parents will stay more involved with their children.

More importantly, though, regardless of maturity level, such concerns shouldn't affect business decisions.

	15-03-2005 00:30									#38
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quote: Their parents are not legally obligated to support them, unlike when they are below 18.

Parents are obligated to support their kids below 18? I never knew this to be the case, but I would be interested in being shown that this is the case.

In any event, in our society nowadays, parents often support their kids at least through their undergraduate degrees. And most below 21 do not own even a small bit of property. If these aspects of society change, then the age requirement should be adjusted.

	15-03-2005 00:33									#39
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quote: more concerned parents will stay more involved with their children.

ideally...

quote: More importantly, though, regardless of maturity level, such concerns shouldn't affect business decisions.

see... that's the problem... I think business SHOULD take morality into account on some level. I find it somewhat hypocritical that someone who claims to be a Christian would think otherwise. I wonder if Jesus would believe in business ethics?

	15-03-2005 00:37									#40
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quote: see... that's the problem... I think business SHOULD take morality into account on some level. I find it somewhat hypocritical that someone who claims to be a Christian would think otherwise. I wonder if Jesus would believe in business ethics?

I believe in business ethics, too - I just don't believe in forcing a business to subscribe to a particular morality. If I ran a convenience store, would I sell beer to a 12 year old? No, probably not. But should the government be able to tell me that I can't? I don't think they should.

	15-03-2005 00:40									#41
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quote: But should the government be able to tell me that I can't?

the government enforces the law, elected representatives make the law... people vote in the elected representatives. I absolutely believe that society has the right to tell you you can't.

	15-03-2005 00:42									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Parents are obligated to support their kids below 18? I never knew this to be the case, but I would be interested in being shown that this is the case.

You think that parents are allowed to let their children starve to death? As long as they remain their legal guardians they are obligated to ensure that the child has access to the essentials of life.

quote: In any event, in our society nowadays, parents often support their kids at least through their undergraduate degrees. And most below 21 do not own even a small bit of property. If these aspects of society change, then the age requirement should be adjusted.

Still talking in circles. You're arguing against the average 18 year-old's suitability to become president. I'm not arguing for it. I'm arguing that they should have the legal right to try. Under your arguments we should legally limit the ability of a beggar to run for president, yet we do not.

There is already an effective suitability test in place. You just went through a round of it in November. It's not like we appoint people to political office by lot. If we did, I would agree with you as to the necessity of limiting to field of candidates to those who have proven their suitability. Since we do not, I don't see why your arguments hold any importance whatsoever.

	15-03-2005 00:46									#43
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quote: the government enforces the law, elected representatives make the law... people vote in the elected representatives. I absolutely believe that society has the right to tell you you can't.

Yet that argument implies that any law passed by a majority of representatives, and hence "supported by society", is perfectly alright, yet I know that you don't believe that.

The question then becomes one of where you draw the line? So, where?

	15-03-2005 00:47									#44
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quote: You're arguing against the average 18 year-old's suitability to become president.

I was talking the voting age. Were you talking president?

Acutal property ownership and taxpaying are the triggers for voting age, as far as I'm concerned. Anything other than that and the young adults are just cashing checks that others are writing.

	15-03-2005 00:51									#45
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quote: IW, you should know that that's how age of consent laws operate today in all jurisdictions I'm aware of. Are you suggesting that we change the laws to make it a criminal offense for two young people to have sex with each other?

England didn't even get the words "age of consent" written into legislation until 2003. As it stands, it is a criminal offense for two young people to have sex with each other. The prosecutors can decide whether or not to prosecute based on various poorly defined circumstances. So strictly speaking there is an age (13 in the UK) before which there are no legal rights to any sexual activity. I was suggesting that in such a situation, the right to a private abortion should not be extended to those younger than that age. I chose 14.

	15-03-2005 00:53									#46
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You know, Dan, in Canada there's no special age rquirement to be Prime Minister. I'm not even sure that you have to be 18, given the fact that the requirement that you be an MP/Senator (which does necessitate that you be of age) is customary, not a legal ruquirement.

Yet somehow we've managed to avoid having any 20 year olds as prime ministers.

As a matter of fact, the youngest prime minister we've ever had has been Joe Clark, who came in just before his 40 birthday (and left just after it, but that's another story)...

	15-03-2005 00:53									#47
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Yet that argument implies that any law passed by a majority of representatives, and hence "supported by society", is perfectly alright, yet I know that you don't believe that.

There is a hierarchy of sorts. The Constitution protects certain rights. Hence, I believe a Democracy cannot take away rights prescribed to the people. However, there's nothing about the right of a minor to consume tobacco or alcohol in the Constitution.

quote: The question then becomes one of where you draw the line? So, where?

Simple. The age of consent is where you draw the line. And I believe that to be age 18. Generally, society has determined that 18 is when people officially become an adult. I believe in your point that the government can't tell you who to sell to and not sell to, but only if we're talking about two consenting adults. The issue at hand is with a consenting adult in a business selling to a minor... not able to consent. A sale of certain products or services is like a legal contract. And only two consenting adults can enter legal contracts.

	15-03-2005 00:54									#48
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I was talking the voting age. Were you talking president? Acutal property ownership and taxpaying are the triggers for voting age, as far as I'm concerned. Anything other than that and the young adults are just cashing checks that others are writing.

So you would take away the right of 18 year-olds to vote?

Interesting, and more repugnant...

	15-03-2005 00:55									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Acutal property ownership and taxpaying are the triggers for voting age, as far as I'm concerned. Anything other than that and the young adults are just cashing checks that others are writing.

should young adults then be exempt from sales taxes?

	15-03-2005 00:57									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat England didn't even get the words "age of consent" written into legislation until 2003. As it stands, it is a criminal offense for two young people to have sex with each other. The prosecutors can decide whether or not to prosecute based on various poorly defined circumstances. So strictly speaking there is an age (13 in the UK) before which there are no legal rights to any sexual activity. I was suggesting that in such a situation, the right to a private abortion should not be extended to those younger than that age. I chose 14.

I was completely unaware of this. Seems sort of ridiculous. You can prosecute two 13 year-olds for ****ing?

	15-03-2005 00:59									#51
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Technically you can prosecute the boy. Unless there's some sort of coercion going on, it won't happen.

	15-03-2005 00:59									#52
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I'd also like to point out that there is one notable exception to DanS' idea that 18 year-olds are less invested in the actions of their government.

It's 3 letters long, begins with a W and ends with an R....

	15-03-2005 01:00									#53
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quote: So you would take away the right of 18 year-olds to vote?

In our current society structure, yes.

quote: Interesting, and more repugnant...

Meh. We need to make sure that those invested in society are calling the shots with regard to their tax dollars and how their long-term interests are being impacted by government policy.

quote: It's 3 letters long, begins with a W and ends with an R....

Not so much the case nowadays, with a professional army.

	15-03-2005 01:00									#54
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'd also like to point out that there is one notable exception to DanS' idea that 18 year-olds are less invested in the actions of their government. It's 3 letters long, begins with a W and ends with an R....

	15-03-2005 01:00									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Technically you can prosecute the boy. Unless there's some sort of coercion going on, it won't happen.

I suppose girls are little angels then.



EDIT: not to you, but to England (or the UK; I have no idea what level this sort of law is handled at).

	15-03-2005 01:01									#56
	Re: Age rights- draw your lines Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Here they go! 1- Leave full-time education.

18

quote: 2- Drive a car.

17

quote: 3- Drive a heavy goods vehicle or bus.

25

quote: 4- Work a 12-hour shift down a coal mine.

22
i'd shorten the shift though.

quote: 5- Have sex.

peers - 15
all ages - 19

quote: 6- Buy porn.

15

quote: 7- Appear in porn in an obvious state of physical arousal.

19

quote: 8- Get married.

21

quote: 9- See front-line service in the army.

draft - 19
front line - 20

quote: 10- Own a 12-bore shotgun.

mmm... if at all - 25

quote: 11- Vote.

18

quote: 12- Become President.

32

quote: 13- Have a credit card, personal loan or mortgage.

18

quote: 14- Adopt children.

26

quote: 15- Gamble.

21

quote: 16- Get executed.

21

quote: 17- Buy a pet. Like a Pit Bull or a Python, or something.

19

added:

quote: buy alcohol

17

quote: buy tobaco

17 (though i'd pursue making it heavily taxed)

	15-03-2005 01:02									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Meh. We need to make sure that those invested in society are calling the shots with regard to their tax dollars and how their long-term interests are being impacted by government policy.

translation... the rich and corporations should run things?

I guess someone doesn't believe in the phrase "all men were created equal". Though I apologize if I am mischaracterizing you DanS... but that's what I'm taking away from your statements.

	15-03-2005 01:03									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Not so much the case nowadays, with a professional army.

http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news...es.asp?id=28386

	15-03-2005 01:05									#59
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quote: translation... the rich and corporations should run things?

Something like 70-80% of people own their houses nowadays. Those are the kind of people who should be calling the shots, because they will be less inclined to harm their own long-term interests.

	15-03-2005 01:05									#60
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In fact, I'm pretty sure that the average age of casualties today is lower than it was in WWII or WWI...