15-03-2005 01:06									#61
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Something like 70-80% of people own their houses nowadays. Those are the kind of people who should be calling the shots, because they will be less inclined to harm their own long-term interests.

yikes so only property owners should run things?

I think that was called, Feudalism.

	15-03-2005 01:07									#62
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Something like 70-80% of people own their houses nowadays. Those are the kind of people who should be calling the shots, because they will be less inclined to harm their own long-term interests.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timeli..._poll_tax.shtml

	15-03-2005 01:08									#63
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news...es.asp?id=28386

And less than 22% of the total would be younger than 21, the age that I gave for voting. Compare to Vietnam, f.e.

	15-03-2005 01:09									#64
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What's poll taxes have to do with anything on which I've opined?

	15-03-2005 01:09									#65
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse In fact, I'm pretty sure that the average age of casualties today is lower than it was in WWII or WWI...

I don't know about that...

I haven't yet found figures for WW2 or WW1, but for vietnam

quote: While the average age of casualties in Vietnam was 20, the average age of casualties in the Iraq war is 27, due largely to the fact that many of the troops are older reservists.

from http://www.generationalconsulting.c...ter.pdf#search='average%20age%20of%20casualties'

	15-03-2005 01:09									#66
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And less than that are older than 35.

Nice of you to tell people 18-21 that they're fine for dying on the frontlines but can't be trusted to have one vote in 150 million.

	15-03-2005 01:11									#67
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Voter registration today. Only white male property owners need apply.

	15-03-2005 01:11									#68
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse In fact, I'm pretty sure that the average age of casualties today is lower than it was in WWII or WWI...

Well, in the U.S., the voting age was lowered to 18 during Vietnam, so...

	15-03-2005 01:12									#69
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quote: Originally posted by DanS What's poll taxes have to do with anything on which I've opined?

They have to do with the idea that economic status should have some bearing on the right to vote.

	15-03-2005 01:12									#70
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First of all, I do not support age lines, but I realise that, because there is no way to evaluate each individual separately, some kind of a line has to be drawn.

1- Leave full-time education.
16. By that age, secondary school is probably finished, and if the guy doesn't want to learn, no point forcing him to anyway.
2- Drive a car.
16
3- Drive a heavy goods vehicle or bus.
3 years of driving experience without accidents.
4- Work a 12-hour shift down a coal mine.
18 (hopefully fit enough by then)
5- Have sex.
14 with others aged 14-18. 18 with anyone aged 16+.
6- Buy porn.
14. Come on, they're gonna get all the porn they want anyway.
7- Appear in porn in an obvious state of physical arousal.
18. It's just sick before that.
8- Get married.
18. I'd like an additional rule, though, where at least one of the two engaging in marriage have a steady income source.
9- See front-line service in the army.
20, but volunteer joining only.
10- Own a 12-bore shotgun.
Never. There is no need for civilians to own SPAS12, M16, AK47 or M82 (god forbid) or any such weaponry.
11- Vote.
I'd say 18 for elections as in Parlament/Presidental, but 21 for referendums that amend constiution (such as the vote for EU was here).
12- Become President.
30.
13- Have a credit card, personal loan or mortgage.
18
14- Adopt children.
25
15- Gamble.
21
16- Get executed.
Never.
17- Buy a pet. Like a Pit Bull or a Python, or something.
I support a ban on any aggressive dog breeds... but 21.

	15-03-2005 01:14									#71
	Re: Age rights- draw your lines Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

1- Leave full-time education. 16

2- Drive a car. 16

3- Drive a heavy goods vehicle or bus. 21

4- Work a 12-hour shift down a coal mine. 21

5- Have sex. 12

6- Buy porn. 16

7- Appear in porn in an obvious state of physical arousal. 18

8- Get married. 18

9- See front-line service in the army. 18

10- Own a 12-bore shotgun. 18

11- Vote. 18

12- Become President. 35

13- Have a credit card, personal loan or mortgage. 18

14- Adopt children. 21

15- Gamble. 18

16- Get executed. 18

17- Buy a pet. Like a Pit Bull or a Python, or something. 21

	15-03-2005 01:14									#72
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quote: Never. There is no need for civilians to own SPAS12, M16, AK47 or M82 (god forbid) or any such weaponry

What if you're a bad shot, or blind!!!?

quote: support a ban on any aggressive dog breeds

Shows what you know... there is no such thing as an aggressive dog breed.

	15-03-2005 01:16									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, in the U.S., the voting age was lowered to 18 during Vietnam, so...

And it did so in Canada too.

Except we weren't in Vietnam...

It was simply an acknowledgement that along with responsibilities come rights.

18 year olds have every legal responsibility that you do. Their parents might relieve them of the burden of paying for themselves, just as there are some housewives in the US who never lift a finger outside the home. Doesn't mean we disenfranchise those without jobs...

	15-03-2005 01:16									#74
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quote: They have to do with the idea that economic status should have some bearing on the right to vote.

Only indirectly, through age. I never suggested a poll tax, so that's a red herring.

	15-03-2005 01:17									#75
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1- Leave full-time education.: 18

2- Drive a car.: 18

3- Drive a heavy goods vehicle or bus.: 21

4- Work a 12-hour shift down a coal mine.: never

5- Have sex.: 16

6- Buy porn.: 16

7- Appear in porn in an obvious state of physical arousal.: 16

8- Get married.: 16

9- See front-line service in the army.:18

10- Own a 12-bore shotgun.: 18

11- Vote.: 16

12- Become President.: 35

13- Have a credit card, personal loan or mortgage.: 18

14- Adopt children. 21

15- Gamble.: 18

16- Get executed.: never

17- Buy a pet. Like a Pit Bull or a Python, or something.: 18

	15-03-2005 01:18									#76
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Only indirectly, through age.

If presented as the basis for the age requirement then you have to be prepared to defend the idea that it is a legitimate basis.

	15-03-2005 01:19									#77
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Come on, Dan. If the reason you don't want 18 year olds to vote is that they don't own property then you have to defend the position that ownership of property should be a requirement to vote...

	15-03-2005 01:22									#78
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I'm not going to defend it against irrelevant arguments.

quote: then you have to defend the position that ownership of property should be a requirement to vote

I don't have to do any such thing. What are you blathering on about?

quote: And it did so in Canada too. Except we weren't in Vietnam... It was simply an acknowledgement that along with responsibilities come rights. 18 year olds have every legal responsibility that you do. Their parents might relieve them of the burden of paying for themselves, just as there are some housewives in the US who never lift a finger outside the home. Doesn't mean we disenfranchise those without jobs...

In the US, the drinking age was raised to 21 after Vietnam. So there is some precedent. Besides, I think you can be 17 and be in the Army.

	15-03-2005 01:24									#79
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Nonsequitur?

	15-03-2005 01:24									#80
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Stop ****ing DanSing me.

	15-03-2005 01:26									#81
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Your point was that if 18-year olds have all the responsibility, they should have all the rights. While in most cases, this seems like a sensible way to go, there are already exceptions to the rule to reflect the long history of adulthood at age 21.

Besides, it would be pretty damn boring to list "18" below all the items in the lead post.

	15-03-2005 01:27									#82
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I don't have to do any such thing. What are you blathering on about?

I guess you don't have to do anything you don't want to. Until you do, though, you lose any claim to being logically consistent in my view.

quote: In the US, the drinking age was raised to 21 after Vietnam. So there is some precedent.

Some precedent for changing age laws? When did I say there wasn't.

Nice example though.

	15-03-2005 01:28									#83
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Your point was that if 18-year olds have all the responsibility, they should have all the rights. While in most cases, this seems like a sensible way to go, there are already exceptions to the rule to reflect the long history of adulthood at age 21.

And you've thus created a group of people with all the responsibility who are missing some of the rights. Screw that.

	15-03-2005 01:29									#84
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quote: Until you do, though, you lose any claim to being logically consistent in my view.

Who ever said I wanted to claim that?

	15-03-2005 01:36									#85
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Sigged, of course.

	15-03-2005 01:41									#86
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Meh. Suit youself. Consistency has about zero utility in this discussion. There are some rights given well before responsibilities in my list. I feel no need to make everything consistent.

	15-03-2005 01:41									#87
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Without context, it loses its meaning, KH.

	15-03-2005 01:44									#88
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I'm just against creating second-class citizens. Strange of me, I know...

	15-03-2005 01:51									#89
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Yes, I'm crying in my beer for them. You know, the one I can buy because I'm at least 21 years of age.

	15-03-2005 01:52									#90
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Hey, so can I.

And I was voting and drinking at 18 too, the way it should be...