15-03-2005 01:54									#91
	Put an end to popups!

Actually, I agree on the drinking at age 18, but on different grounds than some ridiculous "consistency" argument that you've trotted out.

	15-03-2005 01:57									#92
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I happen to think it's good to be consistent...

	15-03-2005 02:03									#93
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Incidentally, there's a long history of drinking and voting. No less a personage than George Washington got his whole constituency drunk as a campaign gift on election day.

We need consistent drinking and voting laws. 21.

	15-03-2005 02:07									#94
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Actually, I agree on the drinking at age 18, but on different grounds than some ridiculous "consistency" argument that you've trotted out.

Some people think that it's a good idea when studying law and morality to have a set of fundamental principles which are then applied to specific questions to provide answers.

	15-03-2005 02:20									#95
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quote: please feel free to annotate your responses with the phrase "I wouldn't recognise pragmatism even if it had spent the past millennium with my genitals in its mouth"

	15-03-2005 02:23									#96
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pragmatic?

as long as it fits in DanS's ownership society ideology, right?

	15-03-2005 02:31									#97
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So you want to disenfranchise approximately 6% of the US voting age public (who already have one of the lowest participation rates) based on pragmatic reasons?



http://censtats.census.gov/data/US/01000.pdf

	15-03-2005 02:40									#98
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quote: who already have one of the lowest participation rates

Precisely so. They don't vote because they are away at college and don't feel they have a sufficient stake in society to force themselves to vote.

	15-03-2005 02:43									#99
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quote: don't feel they have a sufficient stake in society

that's reasoning based upon your sick ideology, DanS... that's not pragmatism.

	15-03-2005 02:48									#100
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Precisely so. They don't vote because they are away at college and don't feel they have a sufficient stake in society to force themselves to vote.

So where's the pragmatic necessity in taking away their vote?

	15-03-2005 02:56									#101
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Where's the pragmatic necessity of giving them the vote?

	15-03-2005 02:56									#102
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I didn't say there was one. I said it was a question of idealism.

	15-03-2005 02:57									#103
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Come on, Dan. You're making this too easy...

Either you're arguing from pragmatism or idealism

If you're arguing from pragmatism then show me your pragmatic reasons

If you're arguing from idealism then you should probably be consistent...

	15-03-2005 02:59									#104
	Got spare money?

quote: I said it was a question of idealism.

As I read it, you said it was a question of consistency.

	15-03-2005 03:01									#105
	Increase the size of your Attachments

maybe consistency is his ideal

	15-03-2005 03:02									#106
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consistency is a hallmark of arguing from ideals, Dan.

You really have fallen apart, dude.

	15-03-2005 03:09									#107
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quote: consistency is a hallmark of arguing from ideals, Dan.

You have asked me to infer the existence of those ideals. As far as I can recall, you have only referred to consistency as a reason for the voting age of 18.

Why not have a voting age of 16, as the Iranians do?

	15-03-2005 03:17									#108
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I already mentioned the ideal in question, Dan. Thou shalt not have second class citizens.

This is getting boring and I have some work to do.

	15-03-2005 03:20									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Sava maybe consistency is his ideal

Looks like you're right.

	15-03-2005 03:25									#110
	Re: Age rights- draw your lines Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp 1- Leave full-time education.

16

quote: 2- Drive a car.

with adults - 13
by themselves - 16
permanent liscence - 18

quote: 3- Drive a heavy goods vehicle or bus.

18

quote: 4- Work a 12-hour shift down a coal mine.

18; 16 if they've dropped out of school
work an after-school job, weekends, summer job-14

quote: 5- Have sex.

noone over 18 has sex with anyone under 18, and no one under 14 has sex at all.

there's no avoiding it--teenagers will have sex. the absence of a restriction shouldn't be seen as encouragement, but there's no reason to say "18" when you know it will be totally useless.

quote: 6- Buy porn.

13

quote: 7- Appear in porn in an obvious state of physical arousal.

18

quote: 8- Get married.

16

quote: 9- See front-line service in the army.

21

quote: 10- Own a 12-bore shotgun.

at any age when given total adult supervision; by hisself, 13; alone completely, 18

quote: 11- Vote.

18

quote: 12- Become President.

18

quote: 13- Have a credit card, personal loan or mortgage.

18, 16 if they dropped out of school

quote: 14- Adopt children.

18, 16 if they dropped out of school (and can prove their dropout status won't make them deadbeat parents)

quote: 15- Gamble.

10 with adult supervision, 15 without

quote: 16- Get executed.

"Thou shalt not kill."

quote: 17- Buy a pet. Like a Pit Bull or a Python, or something.

pets are kosher at any age, in the event a parent buys their kid a snake and it kills the kid, the parent is obviously a negligent dumbass

	15-03-2005 04:21									#111
	Tired of ads?

1- Leave full-time education. 15
2- Drive a car. 18
3- Drive a heavy goods vehicle or bus. 20
4- Work a 12-hour shift down a coal mine. 15, see point 1
5- Have sex. 30, within wedlock
6- Buy porn. never
7- Appear in porn in an obvious state of physical arousal. never
8- Get married. 25
9- See front-line service in the army. 16
10- Own a 12-bore shotgun. never
11- Vote. never
12- Become President. 50, although i would prefer Emperor at time of inheritance
13- Have a credit card, personal loan or mortgage. 15, see point 4
14- Adopt children. never
15- Gamble. never
16- Get executed. 16
17- Buy a pet. Like a Pit Bull or a Python, or something. never

	15-03-2005 04:23									#112
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we need to turn young people into a slave class

	15-03-2005 06:57									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Al'Kimiya 6- Buy porn. never

Good point. Kids have the internet these days.

	15-03-2005 07:21									#114
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Ack! Y'all started a youth rights thread without me! Darn. I was off in PA gettin' laid.

Well I'll try to get to it later. Good to see that the topic keeps coming up. I'm glad everyone is thinking about these issues, even if you don't all agree yet.

	15-03-2005 07:48									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Al'Kimiya 1- Leave full-time education. 15 2- Drive a car. 18 3- Drive a heavy goods vehicle or bus. 20 4- Work a 12-hour shift down a coal mine. 15, see point 1 5- Have sex. 30, within wedlock 6- Buy porn. never 7- Appear in porn in an obvious state of physical arousal. never 8- Get married. 25 9- See front-line service in the army. 16 10- Own a 12-bore shotgun. never 11- Vote. never 12- Become President. 50, although i would prefer Emperor at time of inheritance 13- Have a credit card, personal loan or mortgage. 15, see point 4 14- Adopt children. never 15- Gamble. never 16- Get executed. 16 17- Buy a pet. Like a Pit Bull or a Python, or something. never

Traditional values.

	15-03-2005 08:30									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Good point. Kids have the internet these days.

The more internet porn I see, the more I wish I'd never seen any

	15-03-2005 08:33									#117
	Re: Age rights- draw your lines Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: 1- Leave full-time education.

16

quote: 2- Drive a car.

16

quote: 3- Drive a heavy goods vehicle or bus.

age at time of getting licence +2 years

quote: 4- Work a 12-hour shift down a coal mine.

18

quote: 5- Have sex.

14

quote: 6- Buy porn.

14

quote: 7- Appear in porn in an obvious state of physical arousal.

16

quote: 8- Get married.

18

quote: 9- See front-line service in the army.

20

quote: 10- Own a 12-bore shotgun.

25

quote: 11- Vote.

16

quote: 12- Become President.

20 (fat chance though )

quote: 13- Have a credit card, personal loan or mortgage.

16

quote: 14- Adopt children.

20

quote: 15- Gamble.

with their own cash, 3
on credit, 16

quote: 16- Get executed.

never

quote: 17- Buy a pet. Like a Pit Bull or a Python, or something.

12

	15-03-2005 08:42									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Al'Kimiya 10- Own a 12-bore shotgun. never 17- Buy a pet. Like a Pit Bull or a Python, or something. never

Why are you against (shot)gun ownership? And how do you feel about ownership of livestock and steeds?

	15-03-2005 11:31									#119
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Not having read the thread so far

1- Leave full-time education.
16

2- Drive a car.
16

3- Drive a heavy goods vehicle or bus.
18 (regular license + time needed to get experience and actual learning of this different way to drive)

4- Work a 12-hour shift down a coal mine.
Never.

5- Have sex.
With people of similar age: 13-14-ish, but unenforceable. With people of vastly different ages: 16-17

6- Buy porn.
14.

7- Appear in porn in an obvious state of physical arousal.
Same as age of consent. Whatever the age of consent may be.

8- Get married.
16

9- See front-line service in the army.
16 as a right. Obligation only later.

10- Own a 12-bore shotgun.
18. With the adequate permits.

11- Vote.
16.

12- Become President.
16

13- Have a credit card, personal loan or mortgage.
16

14- Adopt children.
18. Edit: adopting is typically a case-by-case basis, where the social services eveluate you personally. If you're suited for adoption at 18, by all means, go ahead.

15- Gamble.
16

16- Get executed.
Never

17- Buy a pet. Like a Pit Bull or a Python, or something.
Dangerous animals should only be granted to professional with special permits. If the youngster miraculously manages to become a skilled professional by 16, then so be it.

	15-03-2005 12:07									#120
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Tying rights to finanical independence is absurd. If that were the case, we'd have to remove the vote from eldery people supported by their children, from people on public assistance, etc.

Particularly with the right to vote, economics is only one set of issues. There are other issues, such as foreign policy which could determine if there is to be a draft, and also social issues relating to the freedoms we enjoy and the moral norms the government goes by.