15-03-2005 15:01									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You just get boys with no skills when it comes to interacting with girls.

you aren't allowed to ineract with girls in class. You are forced to be quiet and listen to the teacher.

	15-03-2005 15:02									#32
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm If you doubt the ability of the school to make such an assessment , then let the experts do it . Introduce monthly standardised testing .

How does a stadardised test of dicipline work?

It's not the job of an elementary school to sort people into different categories.

(That's a job for the society! )

	15-03-2005 15:12									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed It's a system that, like all similar right-wing policies, seems willfully designed to increase social segregation and cement class structures. When there's ample sociological evidence that (a) children from underpriviledged backgrounds with no tradition of study do worse at school and that (b) teachers have a tendency to categorise working-class children as weak early on, this policy seems designed to keep the under-class dregs from sullying our fine institutions. In other words, it's just conservatism as usual.

It seems you did not read what I wrote just a post or two above .

quote: Originally posted by aneeshm And the competitive spirit this encourages is very good . If the thing is evaluated every month , on the basis of the record of the past six months , then the academic boundaries become permeable and fluid , thus not forcing anyone to be anywhere except where they deserve . Monthly re-appraisals on the basis of the past record of six months is necessary for the system to work and for the three classes not to stratify .

	15-03-2005 15:14									#34
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But the chances are pretty good that they will stratify.

	15-03-2005 15:16									#35
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quote: And the competitive spirit this encourages is very good

Indeed, because kids should learn early on that life is all about competition.

	15-03-2005 15:16									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin How does a stadardised test of dicipline work? It's not the job of an elementary school to sort people into different categories. (That's a job for the society! )

A standardised test of discipline works by having a rulebook giving objectives principles of discipline ( applicable only on the school premises ) , depending upon which individual cases are judged , also based on certain rough guidelines provided in the same book . The rulebook is standardies .

	15-03-2005 15:20									#37
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Yeah, I'm sure that the use of that rulebook will work great in the real world.

	15-03-2005 15:21									#38
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@ Combat Ingrid

Are you trolling ? Because you see , it so just happens that on this planet , in this reality , life is , surprising as it may be to you , all about competition .

	15-03-2005 15:47									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Possibly, though I think a better idea is to give the kids having problems with classwork extra help.

Why attempt to cure a problem you can prevent? Teach the classwork differently and maybe they won't have a problem with it.

quote: You also run the risk of kids in such a class get labelled "idiots" or some such and hazed.

But you don't with remedial lessons? Bullshit. Kids are smart enough to know more or less the strata of academic ability within a yeargroup without needing separate classes.
In my experience, the "idiots" are either left alone because it's like shooting fish in a barrel, or are themselves the hard bastards who pick on the smart kids.

quote: If it is a discipline issue, it is paramount to find out what the problem is. There are various causes, one of them is the kid is too gifted for the class, so she gets bored, and start causing trouble. Or maybe she doesn't like regular education because she loves music or painting?

Yeah, I agree, and shifting them into a separate class isn't going to solve problems like that. But I would've thought by secondary school age, the child themself will be self-aware to some extent of their own problems, and the teachers will get informed of it.

	15-03-2005 15:57									#40
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No. The bureaucratic web you are proposing to enforce this segregation would be terribly expensive, and probably completely arbitary and unfair.

	15-03-2005 16:02									#41
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I fail to see why I should let my grades potentially suffer and degrade my education so the idiot behind me can feel good about himself.

Hell, while I am studying all night he is probobly the one ****ing some hottie behind the bleachers, and you think HE needs help with his self esteem?

Not everyone gets to be an astonaut when they grow up.

quote: Education is not about producing cogs for companies

Hmmm... breat feeding young adults through their education so they have no concept of hard work, self motivation, responsibility, and that real life is stratified produces something other that cubicle monkeys?

	15-03-2005 16:24									#42
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Grades specifically? No, they aren't the best rubric. Ability? Hell yes. Why do you come up with so many obvious questions?

	15-03-2005 16:24									#43
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG school is not just about geting knowledge. realising that life is full of "disruptive idiots" (of any kind) is a very valuable leasson as well

Doesn't have to be learned over the course of fourteen years at the expense of a significant amount of knowledge.

	15-03-2005 16:25									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I disgree. Education is not about producing cogs for companies, it is about bring out the full potentials in each and every individual. It is better to find out why these "disruptive idiots" are disrupting, instead of banishing them to a downward spiral.

	15-03-2005 16:33									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed It's a system that, like all similar right-wing policies, seems willfully designed to increase social segregation and cement class structures. When there's ample sociological evidence that (a) children from underpriviledged backgrounds with no tradition of study do worse at school and that (b) teachers have a tendency to categorise working-class children as weak early on, this policy seems designed to keep the under-class dregs from sullying our fine institutions. In other words, it's just conservatism as usual.

And yet when egalitarian educational techniques are used (similar to commie economics where everyone is equal but poor) and everyone gets stupider, the left complains just as much.

	15-03-2005 18:14									#46
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The thing is, parents are going to complain about it and kids will be on levels they aren't supposed to be in just because the parents think their kid is smarter than the kid really is.

Even one dumb kid who asks questions can really slow down a class.

	15-03-2005 18:19									#47
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That is a problem, and it's why we shouldn't let parents have any say in the running of the school

Seriously, though, it doesn't seem to have become enough of a problem to outweigh the benefits of having advanced classes and schools.

	15-03-2005 18:23									#48
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You guys act like it is a cure all though.

	15-03-2005 18:31									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Sure, great idea. Brand them as soon as possible and reduce their chances of improving themselves. Concentrating all the kids with some diciplinary problems is probably the best way of ensuring that none of them will ever learn good behavior or change. Why don't you just throw them in prison?

Point understood but is it truly fair to kids who are motivated to do well in school?

Gotta break some eggs to make omelets.

Set up a seperate program or curriculum for those who are not as motivated. Something that would try to encourage them to rethink their priorities and try to do better at school. I wouldn't want to just brand them 'lost cause' and tell them they will never succeed. Every kid can succeed if they truly want to do so. It's the matter of the horse and water - if they refuse to drink why should I let them slow down those who are willing to drink?

Some ideas for this seperate program - boot camp, self-discovery activities, leadership building activities, and as a last resort a class field trip to a prison.

	15-03-2005 18:37									#50
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A very simple idea stands behind this logic and tactic:

People who are smart and well-behaved in school grow up to be productive and good individuals.

unfortunately, this idea is also completely wrong.

	15-03-2005 18:42									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Doesn't placing children with lower academic achievement in the same class make it more likely that the teacher will then pitch the lesson at their level, and ensure than everyone gets taught, rather than only the top 25% of the class? Taking out the 'smart kids' drops the whole thing a notch, so everyone has a chance to get something out of lessons rather than thinking that the teacher only cares about the kids at the top.

Good point.

More and more schools in America is tying teacher performance to their pay. Something called merit pay and its an evil idea.

How do you measure a teacher's performance? Often, administrators will look at students' grades as a measuring stick. So is it fair to the teacher to not receive pay raises because his kids would not (or cannot) commit themselves?

Based on my experiences, they are better off being in same grouping as their peers. This way, everybody do get taught at their own pace.

Which is worse - you're struggling to keep up with top students in your class and you're feeling frustrated and you don't understand what the heck is going on. Some kids would just give up and that often lead to negative attitude or getting into trouble which affect everybody else in the room.

Or you're in a class in which your classmates are of similar academic motivation and strength. You are learning at the same time with everybody else and if you make a mistake, that's ok. You've seen others make mistakes and it's cool.


In scenairo B, kids often behave better because they are earning better grades than they would in A and they are paying attention so they are actually learning more than they would in A if they were just being a trouble. Sometimes a kid 'get it' or realize he can really do this and his performance improve along with his confidence resulting him in 'promotion' to a higher level next semester.

	15-03-2005 18:45									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel A very simple idea stands behind this logic and tactic: People who are smart and well-behaved in school grow up to be productive and good individuals. unfortunately, this idea is also completely wrong.

I proclaim a faux pas here.

Completely? Nah, good sir. Sometimes? Yes I can accept this.

	15-03-2005 18:50									#53
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Let's leave it at an ambiguous "many times", Unless you have statistics.

In any case, the point stands.

	15-03-2005 19:18									#55
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On reading the thread title, I thought "discipline" referred to the stream of studies being undertaken- segregating pupils according to their field of study, as well as by intelligence etc.

I thought that would be a good idea. Why should promising pupils have their lives disrupted by dribblers with no social skills, like science students?

	15-03-2005 19:34									#56
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In my experience back when I was in school, it seems that the discipline problems caused in a classroom was usually caused by one or two individuals who would repeatedly disrupt class or harass other students, and it made it much more difficult for the teacher to managet his class. I think if you just segregated out the worst of the worst who repeatedly show they won't follow the rules, it would become much easier to teach a class.

Widespread discrimination based on behavior level would create a situation where it is difficult for those at the bottom to improve themselves. But for the few problem individuals out there, if they have no interest in learning, why should they just be allowed to continue to come to class and disrupt everyone else from learning?

	15-03-2005 20:17									#57
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG school is not just about geting knowledge. realising that life is full of "disruptive idiots" (of any kind) is a very valuable leasson as well

Schools are just about learning, if the students only contact with the outside world is the school that is his, and his parent's problem.

	15-03-2005 20:18									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Sure, great idea. Brand them as soon as possible and reduce their chances of improving themselves. Concentrating all the kids with some diciplinary problems is probably the best way of ensuring that none of them will ever learn good behavior or change. Why don't you just throw them in prison?

because solent green needs them.

	15-03-2005 20:56									#59
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I don't see why this has to be an absolute. Segregation or no segregation. . . In larger schools, you can slice and dice the classes every which way and once students are in high school there is usually a form of voluntary segregation as some students take college prep work while others don't. There were ZERO poor students in classes like physics, chemistry, french.

In lower grades, you could do do something similar. Split the classes somewhat randomly for homeroom geography and history ( the bulk of the subjects) but on the subjects where skills vary the widest say language and mathematics it could be very beneficial to all to segregate based on ability ( and a student could be in the top class for one and not the other-- the idea is to teach to the abilities of the student in that subject). If a teacher has 30 students its much easier to teach effectively if those abilities are across a narrower rather than a broader range. The slower students may not cover as much of the curriculum but they will probably understand much better the studff they did learn. I can even see benefits of boy/girl segregation for say one class a day. Apparently girls feel more empowered in a girls only class and my thought would be that girls speaking out one period may be more likely to carry on with it the next.

The only problem I see with all this is that it contemplates students changing classes pretty regularly. I don't think most primary schools do this as I recall you generally had the same teacher all day long for everything. The downside is that teachers would end up having more students and would end up knowing them less well.

	15-03-2005 21:16									#60
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My middle school in NYc had this system of segregation by academic achievement- classes were divided into 4 tiers, the 1 class, 2,3,4, with the 1 class being top, and so forth. Kids could go from class to class if their grades inproved down the road, but in general, epople stayed were they were. The 1 and 2 class interacted, as did the 3 and 4, but the top two had little interaction with the bottom 2 outside of homeroom.

These assignments were based purely on academics, NOT behavior-there were still disruptive students who got detention in the top classes.

I had an interesting ride, when I went into the school, I was placed in bilingual education (which on this totem pole ranked bellow class 4) and took a few classes with the class 4 kids (like math). My mother felt, rightly, that the level of education at that level was piss poor and demanded that I be taken out of bilingual ed and placed in the general population. They put me in the 3 class, then a couple of weeks later in the 2 class, then about one week later in the 1 class, where I stayed the next four years...

There was certainly a massive difference in achievement between the kids in the 1 class and those in the 3 or 4 class.