15-03-2005 13:13									#1
	Do you support grade/discipline based segregation in schools ? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Simple question . Do you support the breaking up of students into batches based on grades and discipline ? Note that I'm not talking about the existing classes for "gifted" and "slow" learners , I'm talking about seperation ( segregation is a word with dirty associations , I used it only to attract more people to the thread ) based on grade averages and discipline .

For example , anyone with a relatively clean disciplinary record ( say for the past three months ) and whose grades are the top 33 % ( say again over the past six months , or one year ) gets to sit in a seperate class , then the next 33 % and then the next 33 % .

This serves to seperate the wheat from the chaff , and the students who are committed to studies get to study with ( comparatively ) similar people , and also do not have to deal with disruptive idiots who are there only because the state demands it .

I can vouch for this system's efficacy , not because it has been implemented in our school ( it hasn't ) , but because , due to some wierd coincidence , my current classmates are mostly of the studious type , and the effect on my grades has bee a nice increase of ten to fifteen percent .

What do you say to this ?

Last edited by aneeshm on 15-03-2005 at 13:22

	15-03-2005 13:17									#2
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Aneeshm, I wholeheartly agree with this idea.

People can argue until they are blue in face about how this would cause some kids to develop lower self-esteem or whatever, I do not care. Screw them, if they don't have the right attitude toward their own education, why should kids who cares about their education have to put up with them?

I've seen students with huge potential doing poor academically and even getting themselves into trouble due to their lack of self-discipline. While it's important to be able to develop one's skills to focus on what's truly important, I see absolutely nothing wrong with putting them into an environment in which learning is encouraged by one's peers.

	15-03-2005 13:22									#3
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school is not just about geting knowledge. realising that life is full of "disruptive idiots" (of any kind) is a very valuable leasson as well

	15-03-2005 13:23									#4
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Shrug. This can be done by putting those idiots into a huge classroom surrounded by one way mirrors... only can see inside from outside. Then good kids can observe this classroom for their advanced psychology course or whatever.

	15-03-2005 13:31									#5
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@MarkG

Learning how a good system can circumvent and neutralise the effect the "disruptive idiots" have on you is an even more valuable one .

AFAIK , "disruptive idiots" don't usually last long in any white-collar jobs , unless the disruptivity is beaten out of them .

	15-03-2005 13:35									#6
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if you say so

but dont you have private schools for things like good-grades-filtering?

	15-03-2005 13:39									#7
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I disgree. Education is not about producing cogs for companies, it is about bring out the full potentials in each and every individual.

It is better to find out why these "disruptive idiots" are disrupting, instead of banishing them to a downward spiral.

	15-03-2005 13:39									#8
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Sure, great idea. Brand them as soon as possible and reduce their chances of improving themselves. Concentrating all the kids with some diciplinary problems is probably the best way of ensuring that none of them will ever learn good behavior or change. Why don't you just throw them in prison?

	15-03-2005 13:45									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I disgree. Education is not about producing cogs for companies, it is about bring out the full potentials in each and every individual. It is better to find out why these "disruptive idiots" are disrupting, instead of banishing them to a downward spiral.

	15-03-2005 13:52									#10
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i was disruptive but i always scored well (in grade school) where would i go?

	15-03-2005 14:04									#11
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to this idea

to low self esteem

	15-03-2005 14:06									#12
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG school is not just about geting knowledge. realising that life is full of "disruptive idiots" (of any kind) is a very valuable leasson as well

this isn't a very good argument imho.

Are there disruptive idiots at your work? Most people with "upper" jobs can get their own office or lab space. You aren't going to find fast food workers there disrupting your work. Even myself, I have a "lower" job, but I rarely have to deal with disruptive people (just bad drivers).

	15-03-2005 14:08									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Sure, great idea. Brand them as soon as possible and reduce their chances of improving themselves. Concentrating all the kids with some diciplinary problems is probably the best way of ensuring that none of them will ever learn good behavior or change. Why don't you just throw them in prison?

yes because the system we have been doing in the U.S. is working so well...

Nobody improves themselves. Some kids are just losers.

	15-03-2005 14:13									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I disgree. Education is not about producing cogs for companies, it is about bring out the full potentials in each and every individual. It is better to find out why these "disruptive idiots" are disrupting, instead of banishing them to a downward spiral.

The classical education that has been forgotten in this day and age.

	15-03-2005 14:18									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident yes because the system we have been doing in the U.S. is working so well... Nobody improves themselves. Some kids are just losers.

Yes, having the school decide for you if you're a loser or not is surely the best way to go!

	15-03-2005 14:18									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I disgree. Education is not about producing cogs for companies, it is about bring out the full potentials in each and every individual. It is better to find out why these "disruptive idiots" are disrupting, instead of banishing them to a downward spiral.

Doesn't placing children with lower academic achievement in the same class make it more likely that the teacher will then pitch the lesson at their level, and ensure than everyone gets taught, rather than only the top 25% of the class? Taking out the 'smart kids' drops the whole thing a notch, so everyone has a chance to get something out of lessons rather than thinking that the teacher only cares about the kids at the top.

If it's a discipline issue as well, then grouping them all together can be counterproductive if the teacher can't control the situation, but I think in general it works for the majority of people.

	15-03-2005 14:35									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Yes, having the school decide for you if you're a loser or not is surely the best way to go!

you snooze you lose. How hard is it to do well on a standardized test?

	15-03-2005 14:36									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Are there disruptive idiots at your work?

i said "life", not "work"

	15-03-2005 14:38									#19
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@LoA

You were disruptive , but not an idiot . That is why I said two criterion - the first is grades , the second discipline .

@ UR

The biggest reason(s) disruptive idiots disrupt are two-fold .

The first is because they don't want to be in school , yet the nanny state forces them to go there .

The second is because , in general , they are ***** , and disrupt just because they can .

There is nothing you can do to improve the situation , short of allowing kids to leave school when they wish and making state education non-compulsory , or by implementing my idea . What do you choose ?

@ Kropotkin

Ah yes , I was expecting this . The guy afraid of honest assesment . Why are you afraid of telling children how well they do on the academic scale ?

Note that I never said that kids with disciplinary problems are to be put in a certain place . I said students who are the bottom , middle , and top third in both discipline and grades are to be taught seperately . This is not meant to put geniuses in one batch , normals in the second , and retards in the third . It is meant to divide normals into three categories - the geniuses and retards can continue to go to their special classes .

"Why don't you put them in prison ? "

Becuase I don't need to . They manage it eventually anyway .

@ Asmodean

Wow , what an articulate argument ! I am speeechless with wonder at your elite debating skills . I have decided to follow your greatness . I say -




@ Dissident



@ all

About the downward spiral arguments - utter BS . The people who have a penchant for messing up their own life wil continue to do it wherever they are . The people who , on the other hand , are self-motivated and want to improve themselves will do it , again , irrespective of the situation .

I have seen people who got bad grades and were total losers snap out of it , and I have also seen people with good grades unable to cope with even slight changes of circumstances .

	15-03-2005 14:40									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident you snooze you lose. How hard is it to do well on a standardized test?

It depends on the test and what 'do well' means. The original idea from the opening post is that 1/3 would end up in the lower class anyhow. I was aiming more against the idea of sorting out kids on their diciplinary records in my critizism though.

	15-03-2005 14:40									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Yes, having the school decide for you if you're a loser or not is surely the best way to go!

There is this thing called intelligence , and it can be used to reject the school's analysis if you so decide .

	15-03-2005 14:46									#22
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quote: Ah yes , I was expecting this . The guy afraid of honest assesment . Why are you afraid of telling children how well they do on the academic scale ?

I'm not affraid of honest assesment. However, I question the school's ability to make such an assesment. I have nothing against advanced classes or flexibility, but I don't agree with the idea of sorting up kids in three seperate classes based on some general assesment made by some teacher.

	15-03-2005 14:47									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin It depends on the test and what 'do well' means. The original idea from the opening post is that 1/3 would end up in the lower class anyhow. I was aiming more against the idea of sorting out kids on their diciplinary records in my critizism though.

Do well means get marks above a certain percentage , depending on the test and the examiner .

If you do not sort on the basis of disciplinary records , then the kids who disrupt totally ruin education for those who are serious . If you sort , then a stricter poliry WRT offenders can be applied . Imposition of strict , lamost zero tolerance discipline is necessary to bring disruptive idiots in line .

And the competitive spirit this encourages is very good . If the thing is evaluated every month , on the basis of the record of the past six months , then the academic boundaries become permeable and fluid , thus not forcing anyone to be anywhere except where they deserve . Monthly re-appraisals on the basis of the past record of six months is necessary for the system to work and for the three classes not to stratify .

	15-03-2005 14:51									#24
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it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure these kids out. Hell, I could do it when I was a kid.

Though further segregation may be in order. Because you have 2 classes of low performers. You have those that are earnestly trying, but just can't do well in school. And then you have those who just **** off in class and that's why they don't do well. Just send the second group to a trade school or military camp. .

	15-03-2005 14:51									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Doesn't placing children with lower academic achievement in the same class make it more likely that the teacher will then pitch the lesson at their level, and ensure than everyone gets taught, rather than only the top 25% of the class?

Possibly, though I think a better idea is to give the kids having problems with classwork extra help.

quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Taking out the 'smart kids' drops the whole thing a notch, so everyone has a chance to get something out of lessons rather than thinking that the teacher only cares about the kids at the top.

You also run the risk of kids in such a class get labelled "idiots" or some such and hazed.

quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat If it's a discipline issue as well, then grouping them all together can be counterproductive if the teacher can't control the situation, but I think in general it works for the majority of people.

If it is a discipline issue, it is paramount to find out what the problem is. There are various causes, one of them is the kid is too gifted for the class, so she gets bored, and start causing trouble. Or maybe she doesn't like regular education because she loves music or painting?

	15-03-2005 14:52									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin I'm not affraid of honest assesment. However, I question the school's ability to make such an assesment. I have nothing against advanced classes or flexibility, but I don't agree with the idea of sorting up kids in three seperate classes based on some general assesment made by some teacher.

If you doubt the ability of the school to make such an assessment , then let the experts do it . Introduce monthly standardised testing .

I have nothing against special classes for extreme cases , but I think the variation in even so-called average or normal students is too high to be ignored .

	15-03-2005 14:53									#27
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It's a system that, like all similar right-wing policies, seems willfully designed to increase social segregation and cement class structures. When there's ample sociological evidence that (a) children from underpriviledged backgrounds with no tradition of study do worse at school and that (b) teachers have a tendency to categorise working-class children as weak early on, this policy seems designed to keep the under-class dregs from sullying our fine institutions. In other words, it's just conservatism as usual.

	15-03-2005 14:54									#28
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but seriously (I am serious above, but I'm still wary of that much segregation), I would rather see boys and girls seperated during class time (they can intermingle during recess and periods between class).

	15-03-2005 14:55									#29
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm About the downward spiral arguments - utter BS . The people who have a penchant for messing up their own life wil continue to do it wherever they are .

How lovely it is to pass a judgemental statement such as this one when you don't even fully comprehend the issue.

quote: Originally posted by aneeshm The people who , on the other hand , are self-motivated and want to improve themselves will do it , again , irrespective of the situation.

The society should not just pamper those who are fortunate enough.

quote: Originally posted by aneeshm I have seen people who got bad grades and were total losers snap out of it

I am glad you realise that there isn't such a thing as a "born loser."

	15-03-2005 14:57									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident but seriously (I am serious above, but I'm still wary of that much segregation), I would rather see boys and girls seperated during class time (they can intermingle during recess and periods between class).

You just get boys with no skills when it comes to interacting with girls.