15-03-2005 21:18									#61
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Why was bilingual education seen as worse?? I know that here, the students in Frnch immersion almost always come from the top students and in fact I know some programs where students have to maintain pretty high averages in order to stay in the program

	15-03-2005 22:02									#62
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While reading this thread I didnt hear one mention of the middle kid. How wants to learn but isnt that good at some subjects. Why surrounding him with peers at his level might sound like a good I dea however If you ask me taking the chances this kid has to get advice and help from the smarter kids might deter him from learning. In a way in our schools here we have an honors program if the smart kids want to join the can. Most intillegent people i know like being around some of the class clowns it helped with them not put to much stress and pressure on them if the should fail at something.

	15-03-2005 22:05									#63
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And In my opionon those standerdized tests dont prove a thing. Some folks suck at test taking and can fail even if they are very smart. Some person could have a bad day and fail even if he is highly intelligent.

	15-03-2005 22:29									#64
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I agree with Mrs. Tubs

quote: can vouch for this system's efficacy , not because it has been implemented in our school ( it hasn't ) , but because , due to some wierd coincidence , my current classmates are mostly of the studious type , and the effect on my grades has bee a nice increase of ten to fifteen percent . What do you say to this ?

If your grades have improved than why not other kids?

Sometimes the difference between a 2.0 and a 4.0 is just a little encouragement.

Separating kids based on their gpa or the like is stupid. The cream will always rise to the top, no matter how strong the coffee.

	15-03-2005 22:52									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I agree with Mrs. Tubs Separating kids based on their gpa or the like is stupid. The cream will always rise to the top, no matter how strong the coffee.

NIce saying and I agree that the best will be the best no matter how you line them up.

But

-- will the best be bored when the schooling is catering to the middle child
-- will the weaker student be lost if the teacher goes at a middle pace

Or does the whole class lag while trying to help the weakest? The practical reality is that a teacher cannot teach at 30 or 10 or even 3 different speeds at the same time.

I see some benefits to separation by ability . . . I also see some benefits to classes of mixed ability . . . So why not have both? You can separate by ability for some classes and more randomly for others. Students get some teaching at their level but aren't totally segregated.

I went to school that graduated 30 students a year so none of this was possible except for some voluntary segregation by subject in high school. The result was that better students were usually bored although I did spend a fair bit of time tutoring a friend of mine in math ( he was university caliber in anything non-mathematical)

	15-03-2005 22:57									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Why was bilingual education seen as worse?? I know that here, the students in Frnch immersion almost always come from the top students and in fact I know some programs where students have to maintain pretty high averages in order to stay in the program

Yes, because in the UIS bilingual education means teahcing immigrant kids in their own lnaguage, and then teahicng them english as one would learn French or Spanish in American schools (certainly NOT immersion). The biggest problem is that finding qualified teachers who speak the language students are being taught in (90% of the time in Spanish) is difficult.

You end up with kids who are bad at both languages and at every subject.

I wish bilingual education in the US was akin to that in Canada..it aint.

	15-03-2005 22:57									#67
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While Yes some smart kids will get bored. The middle road will succeed and struggle the last will just struggle. This is why tutoring is available. I helped alot of kids in my easy subject but as your friend was i am one of those that is math challenged. I had a friend in class that helped me, more then the teacher. Had he chosen to not be in that class and gone into math honors i would have been screwed. I do believe the choice needs to be that of the child.

	15-03-2005 22:58									#68
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I think segregating kids in elementary school or Jr. High is a bad idea, it is too early to too it, there are many people who are late bloomers. Once in Sr. High the students can go into either a pre-college course, which includes a few college level courses that are worth college credits in 11th and 12th grades, or a vocational course, which prepares students to find a job right out of high school or for a trade school or 2-year college.

	15-03-2005 23:03									#69
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Teachers tend to design lesson plans based around the lowest common demonator, and that does suck. However, a student that is able to prove that they are above that demonator will eventually move into advance course (AP and the like) or get better grades that will eventually lead to a better education.

The HS I went to was very heavily competitive amongst students and peers, and I thought that while this is good, it can also be bad. Your "get out of my way you are slowing me down" is not only selfish but derives the student from other lessons that school teaches besides what the teacher puts on that lesson plan.

Like I said the cream eventually rises to the top. That is why there are AP courses, that is why some HS allow students to forgo classes to attend Unis nearby, that is why when teachers identify students who need more attention they get it.

One of the guys that was in my classes during HS was probably the smartest person I know. He got a full ride to Harvard, got a BS in Chemical Engineer in 3 years, than a Masters in 1, and then a medical degree... And now, he is a teacher. He didn't know he wanted to be a teacher until he was doing field work in some 3rd world country as a doctor. Had he been segregated from his clients, or shielded from the world, we wouldn't have such a well educated and inspired teacher in our systems.

Defining walls encourages the creation of castes.

	15-03-2005 23:06									#70
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Well put japher. I couldnt have said it better myself. Schools arent there just for studies they are there i believe for social structure as well.

	15-03-2005 23:15									#71
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG school is not just about geting knowledge. realising that life is full of "disruptive idiots" (of any kind) is a very valuable leasson as well

But life isn't full of "disruptive idiots" once you graduate from high school. University is very sedate, and so are all the offices I've worked in.

	15-03-2005 23:19									#72
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by MarkG school is not just about geting knowledge. realising that life is full of "disruptive idiots" (of any kind) is a very valuable leasson as well But life isn't full of "disruptive idiots" once you graduate from high school. University is very sedate, and so are all the offices I've worked in.

Sure it is Life is full of them everywhere. There is life after university. You will find them in the workfore, you will find them in the coffee shops, the bars, the library etc. Idiots are everywhere. The only way that you know they are idiots are because they are being disruptive.

	15-03-2005 23:22									#73
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I'm surrounded by idiots, here in the "real world"

I guess what HS teaches you is how to avoid them. If the management did it for you you'd never find where you belong.

I never really tried to avoid idiots since most of my friends are idiots.

I have very few book smart friends. Not because of a superiority thing, but because not many geeks like to go out and get plastered, or watch football until they are blue in the face, or know how to stop thinking for a time or two... I leave work at the office.

	15-03-2005 23:27									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Teachers tend to design lesson plans based around the lowest common demonator, and that does suck.

Why is this? the only reason I can think of is that school administrators are afraid of getting complaints from the parents of the less intellegent kids complaining that thier kids are being "discriminated" against. The result? Classes get dumbed down. And who gets screwed? The smarter kids like Kuci.

	15-03-2005 23:33									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Why is this? the only reason I can think of is that school administrators are afraid of getting complaints from the parents of the less intellegent kids complaining that thier kids are being "discriminated" against. The result? Classes get dumbed down. And who gets screwed? The smarter kids like Kuci.

Now this is a concept I have never understood. Discrimination agaisnt dumb kids. As a parent I send my kid to learn the basics the schools teach. I also encourage the social interaction along with the education experience. If the class is going to slow for my kid and they have finished all the work for that class, this allows more time to spend with me teaching them other things, or reading ahead to learn something new.All in all the dumb kids as you call them get a chance to learn and the smart ones have to time to enjoy being a kid.

	15-03-2005 23:36									#76
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quote: If the class is going to slow for my kid and they have finished all the work for that class, this allows more time to spend with me teaching them other things, or reading ahead to learn something new.

Or have time to take up a hobby?

K-12 is both a babysitting program and a screening program for college. Everything in life is tailored to the lowest common denomenator. Even college. Courses there are really just screening programs for the work force... They just don't mind failing you, because they aren't in the babysitting buisness.

	15-03-2005 23:36									#77
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Class segregation is a matter of values- in the system I went into, the kids on top benefit, the ones on the bottom don't. So the question is, is it better to make sure those than in theory can succeed succeed at the cost of others, or do we want a bit more equality?

	15-03-2005 23:40									#78
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Why do we have to limit everyones ability to learn. In other words we should just give up on the strugglers and roll out a red carpet for the smart ones. Dont think so. I happen to think that some schools are in need of revamping but not at the expense of the child who has troubles.

	15-03-2005 23:44									#79
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I must add that it was in a class were I had clowns and Geeks as you call them that I learned that all these kids had feelings and on more then one occasion stood in the way of letting a smart geek get his ass kicked. Had I never had that experience i would never got involved and the geek would have gotten the **** kicked out of him.

	15-03-2005 23:46									#80
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My father sits on a school board, and has for the past 10+ years. He thinks about this stuff every day.

quote: So the question is, is it better to make sure those than in theory can succeed succeed at the cost of others, or do we want a bit more equality?

I don't think it is succeeding at the cost of others, and I do think there is equality... At least in the system I was in. School should tailor the learning experience to each student. As the get further in school (Jr high and HS) the needs of the student becomes more and more unique, and the school should make every effort to accomodate those needs.

The school district I was in even had a trade school where you took the required courses in the moring and went to work in the afternoon. Helped in a lot of those families which need the income, and helped with those students who had no interest in going to college or any care in really learning anything but their trade.

	15-03-2005 23:53									#81
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I made good money writing essays and term papers for the middle and lower-level students. Go capitalism!

	15-03-2005 23:54									#82
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I did that program My sr year in HS I had three classes in the am and went to work when lunch started. I only needed the government and economics credits to graduate. And it wasnt for the lack of credits it was just the class. I had 4 extras when I graudated. But I still respected the ideals I got from all the kids being mixed when in the same class. It gave me a respect for all the students of different educational levels.

	15-03-2005 23:57									#83
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Why do some people here see some separation by ability to be screwing the poorer students? My dad taught for 30 years at a junior high level and his opinion was that more of the weaker students did better and learned more when it was paced a little slower and they weren't intimidated so much . He thought that the end result was a BETTER education for everyone.

Why is it so wrong to acknowledge that people have different abilities?? We do it in sports at an early age.

	16-03-2005 00:04									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Why do some people here see some separation by ability to be screwing the poorer students? My dad taught for 30 years at a junior high level and his opinion was that more of the weaker students did better and learned more when it was paced a little slower and they weren't intimidated so much . He thought that the end result was a BETTER education for everyone. Why is it so wrong to acknowledge that people have different abilities??.

Political Corectness. Administrators and school boards are scared of offending anyone.

	16-03-2005 00:12									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Why is it so wrong to acknowledge that people have different abilities?? We do it in sports at an early age.

Because in today's world "equal" = "the same"

	16-03-2005 00:17									#86
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Ill say because You are pointing out the students weaknesses and alienation isnt the answer. This i believes give the student the excuse of hell I can be lazy I dont have to try anymore. Hell everybody already knows Im dumb so I will be dumb.

	16-03-2005 00:37									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski Idiots are everywhere.

sig material

	16-03-2005 01:38									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski Ill say because You are pointing out the students weaknesses and alienation isnt the answer. This i believes give the student the excuse of hell I can be lazy I dont have to try anymore. Hell everybody already knows Im dumb so I will be dumb.

What is more alienating?? Being completely lost for year after year with the regular pace of instruction or getting ther sense of accomplishment from success in a class where you can succeed.

** Note that I did not support total segregation but was seeing it more as something for harder subjects. If the kids were mixed differently for each subject I don't see how there would be that much alienantion anyway ( lets figure 5 of 7 subjects are mixed randomly and for 2 subjects they are done on ability-- )

I just don't see any negative consequnce ovverriding the fact that you can at least challenge the good students better while instructing the weaker students at a pace where they can cope better. Do it in a couple of the tough subjects and you will see a lot less boredom among the top students.

	16-03-2005 01:43									#89
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Maybe the top kids like being in the same classes as with everyone else. I said make it a choice. Have the honors classes, If the kid can do the work and wants to be up there then all means let him. But what about those top kids that want to stay?

	16-03-2005 02:02									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski Ill say because You are pointing out the students weaknesses and alienation isnt the answer. This i believes give the student the excuse of hell I can be lazy I dont have to try anymore. Hell everybody already knows Im dumb so I will be dumb.

why aren't the parents busting their kids asses?