17-03-2005 17:55									#121
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It's the same as that in New Zealand IIRC.

The problem is that parents have whined and moaned so much and invaded the school system that the teachers no longer have any real power to make the students work.

I feel sorry for the older teachers. My history teacher had an MA from Cambridge and was one of the brightest people I'd ever met. A pity he was surrounded by hordes of young B.Ed dullards who couldn't even spell properly.

My father, who never finished high school, was employed in the last few years of his life by my high school as a music teacher. He couldn't believe the ignorance in the staff room. He reckoned that only 3 teachers out of about 40 were up to the standard he'd had at a dirt poor British state school in the early 50s.

	17-03-2005 18:01									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I think you'll find that when educational surveys are done in the US a broader segment of the population is tested. The educational systems in many European countries segregate students whom perform better on tests from those who don't, shunting the poorer performers towards a less academic education. When those countries select students to take international educational surveys, they only test the students in the academic programs. In the US we don't segregate students, in fact even "intellectually disadvantaged" students are required by law to be educated in the same schools as the mainstream if at all possible. Hence when American students are selected a wider range is selected from.

I think this claim was already shot down wrt. the PISA study - the study is performed on 14-15 year olds, and in most countries including Finland (who pwned the test may I add) all children of age 15 are still in the same comprehensive school, where there is no separation based on academic performance. (I wish there were, though.)

The incompatibility doesn't begin until about age 16, when most European students split ways to more academically oriented schools that prepare for higher education on the university level, and vocational schools where more 'mundane' professions are learned. AFAIK an American can drop out from high school at this stage, but high school and only highs chool is the only viable option to continue education at that point.

	17-03-2005 18:50									#123
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Depends on the subject I'd think... history, science, arts, humanities I'd think the Europeans have an edge but surely the amount of tech colleges in the US has an effect there? I suppose local differences is also important.

But at a guess, causes would be underfunding of the education system, a culture that doesn't stimulate education and understanding and perhaps insufficient attention to the arts. I think the UK is moving in a similar direction to the US in that regard, where education is seen as a means to employment, not individual fulfillment, which is a sad turn of events .

	17-03-2005 19:47									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski well please let me know when we got off teds ass and back on whether us kids are dumb

I have yet to enjoy that gluteal maximal experience. I'm sure it's like two billiard balls in a sock though.


From my experience there's a definite anti-intellectual thread or current in Anglo-Saxon culture- from Australia to the U.S. and in Great Britain.


I haven't seen this expressed so much in other European cultures, and from what some of the Euro 'Poly posters here have said, the 'cool to be fool' notion doesn't seem to have such a grip where they are.


My advice is to get children hooked on books and solitary reading from an early age, take them to art galleries, museums of technology, science, and so on. It certainly worked with our nephews and nieces.

Encouraging them to learn, either with other children, by themselves or as a family can only be good.

	17-03-2005 20:08									#125
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It isn't nessecarily the case that it isn't cool to be smart. At my high school plenty of popular people were smart and got good grades. It is true though that is not cool to show your intelligence by answering questions in class.

Probably the biggest problem in schools today is the ability of a few bad students who don't care about learning in the least to disrupt class. Alot of time can be wasted on a few kids who don't want to learn and stop other students from doing so. In my school in a relatively well off suburb, this wasn't as much of a problem, but I have heard from teachers who have taught in other, less well off school distrcits that nearly all of the time they spend in other school districts is spent maintaing discipline.

Among African American culture particularly, there does seem to be pressure among them not to learn. Kids who take an interest in studying are branded "Oreos"; black on the outside, white on the inside. At the middle school I went to, which had a large number of them, people would applaud and congradulate each other when they got a bad grade.

	17-03-2005 20:21									#126
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It comes down to the kids. If they don't want to learn, there isn't a whole lot you can do. Unless you can fix every broken family.

If kids try and are encouraged at home, there's not a whole lot you can do either. They're going to learn regardless of the obstacles you put in their path.

So It's not really why american kids are so dumb, it's why aren't a sizable percentage of them motivated.

	17-03-2005 20:32									#127
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American kids aren't any dumber, they are just mostly lazy these days. Not all but most expect things to be given to them and having to break a sweat towards work is mostly foreign to them. We live in a country where 16 year olds expect to have a car to drive and they expect mommy and daddy to get it for them. Kids aren't dumb, it's just that they don't want to put forth any effort.

	17-03-2005 21:13									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper WRT to the Pledge of Allegiance and God, I thought it was a "historical" thing, and had been in there since the pledge was started.

No, the reference about god was put in during the 1960's by conservative fundies.

	17-03-2005 21:25									#129
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Yes, because playing counter-strike and spewing illegible crap in chat rooms is so much more stimulating.

Counte-Strike is so yesterday.


Spec.

	17-03-2005 21:26									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's the same as that in New Zealand IIRC. The problem is that parents have whined and moaned so much and invaded the school system that the teachers no longer have any real power to make the students work. I feel sorry for the older teachers. My history teacher had an MA from Cambridge and was one of the brightest people I'd ever met. A pity he was surrounded by hordes of young B.Ed dullards who couldn't even spell properly. My father, who never finished high school, was employed in the last few years of his life by my high school as a music teacher. He couldn't believe the ignorance in the staff room. He reckoned that only 3 teachers out of about 40 were up to the standard he'd had at a dirt poor British state school in the early 50s.

I posted this in a different thread, but I think that it fits well here.


No offense intended, but most of the people who I know that ended up becoming teachers were those who intially entered college with the goal of becoming a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or businessman. They found out that they weren't good enough students to effectively pursue those careers once in college, they found that getting a teaching degree was easier and allowed for more time to party, and then they ultimately ended up becoming teachers. Thus, the people who eventually become teachers are generally from the lower part of their college class.

I know that this assessment is unfair to some people, and that some teachers were dedicated students who dreamt of becoming teachers. Those people are most likely the good teachers. However, I fear that most teachers fall into the category that I described above, and that's why our country has such poor quality teachers. The only solution seems to be raising the average wage of a teacher to a level that makes teaching a profession that can compete with medicine, engineering, law, or business.

	17-03-2005 21:28									#131
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i don't think they're dumb.

but i do think they're rather ignorant of the rest of the world. like it or not but the media in the US are far more restricted (politically controlled) than ours.

not that the situation with us is that much better, but at least we are exposed to critisism once in a while...

	17-03-2005 21:39									#132
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While I dont disagree that teachers are underpaid, they can be. However People have placed way to much faith in standerdized tests. These tests are not completely accurate. The kids here tend to be lazy but not all of them are. Somebody mentioned here stated there is to much time wasted on practicing for those tests. I have to admit that is true. But this is what you get when the schools are being graded on thier kids performances on those tests this isnt going to change.

	17-03-2005 21:39									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin No, the reference about god was put in during the 1960's by conservative fundies.

1950s, but otherwise correct. It was part of the McCarthyist hysteria, in an attemtp to show that we were a godly nation as opposed to the atheist communists. The irony, or course, being that the pledge was written by a socialist.

	17-03-2005 21:40									#134
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The Republicans hate anything publicly owned so want to distroy public education. On the other hand, the teacher's "union" is really just another intrest group crap teachers use to make shure they don't loose thier job.

	17-03-2005 21:41									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Like when 9th grade girls are pretending to be lesbians in order to attract guys! Crazy!!!

I have heard of this also

as bad as guy and girls being forced to pretend they are straight, when they aren't (like it use to be and is still at some points)

Jon Miller

	17-03-2005 21:46									#136
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rah

	17-03-2005 21:48									#137
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Personally, I think local control is part of the problem- in the US education is controlled by each state, and in most of them, real decisions are made at the local level. To me this is a waste of resources, as it creates multiple levels of adminsitration that are unnecessary, and leave one with uneven curriculums accross the country. At the same time, the current fed approach of unfunded mandates is crap, since if the feds want control, they should pony up the money too.

At the least, education needs to be centralized at the state level and Federal unfunded mandates need to end.

I think education is also too test centric- kids are taught to be good test takers- that does not mean actually being good students of learning the stuff. We need testing to guage progress, yes, but tests should be less often and more in depth. A ten question test that forces you to give real thought to each answer is better than a 60 question multiple choice test. Sure, it is harder to grade, takes more time and effrot, but gives a vastly better picture of real accomplishment and knowledge.

	17-03-2005 21:51									#138
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I'd been in a number of different school systems, as I bounced around the country in the 70s. I saw numerous people held back, including one of my friends. We didn't have multitrack education (except for those students with learning disabilities), so exceptionally gifted students (like me) we forced to learn at the pace of the LCD students, when meant that not only couldn't I get a better education, but the one I did get bored me to tears to the extent that I became a problem student. I angered my teacheres cuz I would only put in the absolute minimum effort, wouldn't pay attention in class or do my homework, but still scored A's on my tests. I graduated in the bottom three, yet had the highest ACT and SAT scores in my school.

The problem is American schools aren't designed for educating students. They're designed to prepare students for work. Thus, a lot of what public schools are about are preparing students to deal with routine work and boredom. They definately do not want to teach students to think critically.

	17-03-2005 21:58									#139
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The US has not a terrible education, but an average one in comparison to other OECD countries. It's far superior than Greece's, for example.

European kids are not necessarily way better educated than American ones. European teaching systems vary immensely, and there are very different results. The Finns score extremely high (#1 or #2 in the wolrd] while the Greeks are among the lowest reviewed countries.

We shouldn't confuse our impression of child dumbness with the reality, because:
- a child will nearly always be "dumb", and we have forgotten how stupid we were at that age
- we often focus on a specific category of dumbasses, rather than on children in general.

I'm not saying there's no problem with the American educational system. It's castly inferior to what it could be. But you're not on third world levels yet.

	17-03-2005 22:00									#140
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'd been in a number of different school systems, as I bounced around the country in the 70s. I saw numerous people held back, including one of my friends. We didn't have multitrack education (except for those students with learning disabilities), so exceptionally gifted students (like me) we forced to learn at the pace of the LCD students, when meant that not only couldn't I get a better education, but the one I did get bored me to tears to the extent that I became a problem student. I angered my teacheres cuz I would only put in the absolute minimum effort, wouldn't pay attention in class or do my homework, but still scored A's on my tests. I graduated in the bottom three, yet had the highest ACT and SAT scores in my school. The problem is American schools aren't designed for educating students. They're designed to prepare students for work. Thus, a lot of what public schools are about are preparing students to deal with routine work and boredom. They definately do not want to teach students to think critically.

Another example that makes my point. Motiviation. He used being bored as an excuse not to be motivated.

	17-03-2005 22:06									#141
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And the school failed to motivate me. My folks weren't much help either. It's moronic that adults expect children to fix the problem. If children were capable of acting like rational adults, they wouldn't be children.

	17-03-2005 22:07									#142
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quote: Originally posted by rah He used being bored as an excuse not to be motivated.

You do realize that's an oxymoronic statement, don't you. You cannot be both bored and motivated at the same time. They are opposites.

	17-03-2005 22:20									#143
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I think a key issue is that americans have less time to spend with their children than in most other countries.

Adult (those aged 15-59) 'free time' (i.e. that spent not sleeping or working) per schoolchild (those aged 5-14), USA=100%

USA = 100%
Japan = 147%
Germany = 144%
France = 127%
Britian = 113%
Italy = 162%
Canada = 115%

	17-03-2005 22:24									#144
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And the school failed to motivate me. My folks weren't much help either. It's moronic that adults expect children to fix the problem. If children were capable of acting like rational adults, they wouldn't be children.

	17-03-2005 22:26									#145
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I sometimes think a solution to the education crisis in the US and UK is the reinstatement of corporal punishment and much stronger parenting.

Bill Cosby

	17-03-2005 23:28									#146
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quote: Americans on average recieve more schooling then anyone else in the world.

Must be in only the blue states though, and not the red ones.

After all, we know for sure, that the only educated people in the US live on the coasts.

	17-03-2005 23:41									#147
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Oregon is the state that had their school year cut short by a month

JM

	17-03-2005 23:44									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Must be in only the blue states though, and not the red ones. After all, we know for sure, that the only educated people in the US live on the coasts.

Minnesota is on the coast? Since when?

	17-03-2005 23:49									#149
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Ever been to Duluth?

	17-03-2005 23:49									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Oh there's no doubt that the quality of teachers has gone down since the 1950s. They're more educated, but the value of that education has diminished greatly. Moreover they aren't as intelligent / simply not the best and brightest on the whole. Back when teaching was one of the few professions that women were allowed to pursue the women who today are doctors, professors, lawyers etc. were often teachers. If we want that quality again we're going to have to pay dearly, or re-enslave women.

I'm not sure I agree with that theory but I can see where you are going with it.

I'm all for it for paying teachers more money. Teachers should be a prized profession. Now nobody wants to do it and those that are in it tell people not to go into it.

The problem with blaming teachers is this:

They are already burned out. Their work day has increased, they have been disempowered by administrator programs, and (despite what has been portrayed here), their accountability in every facet of what they are trying to do has gone WAY UP. They also have spend hours and hours just to do paperwork. Their time is spent doing so many other things other than teaching

The bottom line is that blaming teachers is a silly argument. It reminds me of the whole, "welfare mothers who have another kid to get another check," argument. These people for the most part are there because they want to make a difference, there are no more or less "bad seeds" in the group than any other profession.

But adding another layer of accountability to an already burned out group of professionals is just making things worse. It's just "one more thing," they have to worry about.

quote: Take a little bit longer view Ted. Everyone of my grandmother's siblings (all 9 of them) had to quit school during the depression in order to work. Otherwise they'd starve. Malnutrition was rife at that time, and not uncommon until rather recently. In the earlier part of the 20th century the immigration rates were staggering, which meant that there were huge numbers of kids who didn't speak english as their first language compared to today. The average level of education of the parents of schoolchildren was also quite low. And don't think that there weren't plenty of other social problems back then as well. Substance abuse, abandonment, incest etc. were all going on, but no one went to spill their guts to Montel about it.

But the Depression was a one time event that affected every facet of life in a negative way.

I'm talking post depression era, when the public school system was in it's prime, during the 50s and 60s when public schools had been built in most areas of the country. Kids mostly had 2 parents watching out for them, and parents weren't so busy with other things, as one of the Euros mentioned. Nowadays you are lucky if half the kids have 2 parents watching out for them, and even if you do, they are usually busy doing things like working to get the level of involvement that kids need.

quote: In such a case, "teaching to the test" would also be teaching the curriculum, which is the point of the whole thing in the first place.

Ideally, it should be, but that's not often what happens. Basically the kids are getting crammed at an accelerated pace, and at a high level. They aren't getting the concept behind what they are learning. Sometimes the thinking patterns you are learning are way more important than the end result.