29-03-2005 08:29									#331
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If a person doesn't have a brain, you don't need a test.

	29-03-2005 08:33									#332
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It's never been clear that her cerebrum is completely gone, partially because we don't have access to quality scans.

I see what you're getting at though, so I'll revise my position. If they perform an autopsy on Terri Schiavo and find that her cerebrum is completely gone, then I'll accept it as fact that she was in a PVS. I don't believe you can have cognition without any remaining cerebral cortex.

Kind of sad that we're going to have to wait until she's dead to figure out the truth on this, though. And it does nothing to address the second test set down by Cruzan.

	29-03-2005 08:50									#333
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You mean the one in which the courts have to find convincing evidence of her intente according to the laws of the state?

Maybe you have missed this in the last 1300 posts, but that happened.

	29-03-2005 08:54									#334
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Let us assume that is true. If that is the case, doesn't that blow out of the water the whole contention that Michael is doing this for money? Especially when he was offered $1 million for giving up custody like 5 years back? What would be left, $100k? And I'm sure that's already been spent in 10 years. So then, Ned, if it isn't money, then what is the motivation?

Well, he apparently started the action soon after he formed his relationship with the woman he now calls his "fiancee" and with who he has two kids. At that time, it appears, there was still over $700,000 in the bank which he would inherit if he terminated Terri rather than divorce her.

	29-03-2005 09:00									#335
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You're just as bad as Ned when it comes to swallowing propaganda...

Drake, since you seem to agree and support what I have said in my posts concerning the facts, in what way do you contend I have been swallowing propaganda?

	29-03-2005 09:02									#336
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Drake, she has zero cortical activity on EEG.

She is gone. There is no Terri anymore.

	29-03-2005 09:04									#337
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quote: Drake, since you seem to agree and support what I have said in my posts concerning the facts, in what way do you contend I have been swallowing propaganda?

While I somewhat agree with your position, I think you have been too accepting of stories coming from the parent's side, ie. Terri trying to say "I want to live" and the like. I think both sides in this dispute are lying to make their side look better, so I take most of the statements coming from the parent's side with a grain of salt unless I can find confirmation of them.

	29-03-2005 09:07									#338
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quote: She is gone. There is no Terri anymore.

It's possible, even probable. I've always been more concerned with whether she wanted to die or not, though. I think hearsay evidence from an interested party and his family is insufficient to clearly demonstrate a wish to die, despite what Florida law may say. Killing her based on such evidence may be legal, but it definitely brings up moral questions...

	29-03-2005 09:09									#339
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quote: Originally posted by GePap It will do a great job of exposing the true extent of her brain damage in order to show those *****ing that she was certainly in a PVS, plus it will be used against the trully despicable, like Terry randall, or Ned, who claim she was abused.

On the abuse situation: It appears now that the Schindlers first learned of the bone scan 3 years ago. The scan was taken 50 weeks after the event. Michael says the broken bones: ribs, pelvis, femur; were broken during her care. I am sure he will be able to produce some nurse or doctor to support this contention if true.

On the Hannity show tonight, a forensic doctor said that the depositions in the malpractice case may provide insight into the bone scans, as the lawyers defending the accused doctors would have tried to show that Terri's condition was the result of foul play.

He also said that he reviewed part of the records regarding her admission at the time of the event. The part he reviewed spoke of abraisions, buises and lacerations. There was no mention of broken bones, which he said would have been noticed had they been there at the time.

Still, the doctor did not see the entire report. What is contained in the missing pages is still not known.

Finally, can anyone explain why Michael Schiavo would not tell the Schindlers that their daughter had a catastophic accident while under care? And, since he seemed fond for suing for malpractice, why didn't he sue for such injuries as well?

	29-03-2005 09:13									#340
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Ned you're grasping at straws here... the points you're harping on are really quite irrelevant. I'm actually embarassed for you. Please stop and avoid further embarassment.

Anyways, Terri's body will die soon. All this will be moot.

And the issue will be settled, for those of us with the ability to reason. A full autopsy will be performed and Terri's brain will be looked at. The autopsy will confirm the facts in this case, but the fundies will never accept it.

	29-03-2005 09:14									#341
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Drake, since you seem to agree and support what I have said in my posts concerning the facts, in what way do you contend I have been swallowing propaganda? While I somewhat agree with your position, I think you have been too accepting of stories coming from the parent's side, ie. Terri trying to say "I want to live" and the like. I think both sides in this dispute are lying to make their side look better, so I take most of the statements coming from the parent's side with a grain of salt unless I can find confirmation of them.

Well almost everything I report her is taken directly from the people who were eyewitness to the events. Tonight, the attorney who got Terri to say "Ahhh" "Waa" appeared on the Hannity show and gave a dramatic first hand account of what occurred. As reported elsewhere, there were witnesses to this event that have no connection the Shindlers, including a cop. But the judge never held a hearing to take the testimony regarding what happened, as he ruled that it was "too late" and that it did change the fact that Terri still could not recover.

	29-03-2005 09:16									#342
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I trust attorneys least of all, Ned...

	29-03-2005 09:17									#343
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Drake, she has zero cortical activity on EEG. She is gone. There is no Terri anymore.

In large measure I agree with this. However, Terri is still there to a degree even though she will never be there the way she once was, that is, unless they figure out how to replace brain tissue.

But, even accepting the fact that she her higher level brian functions no longer exist, are you making a statement here that such people no longer have any right to live?

	29-03-2005 09:25									#344
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Killing her based on such evidence may be legal, but it definitely brings up moral questions...

On that, you and I have common ground.

But I also think that Congress is hardly the ideal body to address moral questions.

	29-03-2005 09:28									#345
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But, even accepting the fact that she her higher level brian functions no longer exist, are you making a statement here that such people no longer have any right to live?

Of course not. What I am saying is that

1) all these stories of her asking to live, responding to people, etc., and just bullshit and/or wishful thinking.

2) whether or not she would want to live in such a state is ultimately up to her caregivers.

	29-03-2005 09:32									#346
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Ned you're grasping at straws here... the points you're harping on are really quite irrelevant. I'm actually embarassed for you. Please stop and avoid further embarassment. Anyways, Terri's body will die soon. All this will be moot. And the issue will be settled, for those of us with the ability to reason. A full autopsy will be performed and Terri's brain will be looked at. The autopsy will confirm the facts in this case, but the fundies will never accept it.

And what facts are you suggesting that I am ignoring, Sava. You can read the Judge's opinion for yourself. That is what I rely on when I say that there is not agreement among the experts about whether Terri's cerebral cortex is entirely gone or only partially gone. Whatever is the case, though, there I agree that there is no hope for a recovery without some dramatic breakthru in medicine, such as from stem cell research, which would enable someone to regrow brain tissue.

Now the evidence concerning broken bones is not fantasy, Sava. It is discussed in a written opinion by the judge. http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/t...11-02-scan.pdf.

The witnesses (3) to Michael Schiavo's prior inconsistent statements were not "discredited" as contended by some here. The simply were not allowed to testify at all because that would have required a new trial on the issue of Terri's intent. http://www.2dca.org/opinion/October...1/2d01-3626.pdf

Much of what has been said here by supporters of Michael Schiavo is complete and utter bull. There is a great deal of propaganda being set forth. I agree with that. But most of it appears to be coming from the Michael Schiavo camp.

	29-03-2005 09:36									#347
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Of course not. What I am saying is that 1) all these stories of her asking to live, responding to people, etc., and just bullshit and/or wishful thinking. 2) whether or not she would want to live in such a state is ultimately up to her caregivers.

I have no fundamental disagreement with this either. Most people seem to agree that so long as her parents want to care for her, they should be allowed to do so absent a clear message from Terri herself that she would rather die.

	29-03-2005 09:39									#348
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quote: On that, you and I have common ground. But I also think that Congress is hardly the ideal body to address moral questions.

We're somewhat in agreement on this. I don't approve of the actions of Congress in this case. That being said, I do believe Congress is a more suitable body to address moral issues than the judicial system.

quote: Most people seem to agree that so long as her parents want to care for her, they should be allowed to do so absent a clear message from Terri herself that she would rather die.

I agree. It seems especially wrong to kill her absent a clear indication of her wishes when she has people who are more than willing to care for her.

	29-03-2005 09:52									#349
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Shawn, the knock on Greer is that he is said to be conservative judge who follows the law and not his heart.

Isn't that good? That's what I want from a judge. They are there, after all, to interpret the laws based on what they view the legislature intended, not read into it their own biases.

And how does that jive with the judicial activism rap he has been getting?

(yes I know this was from days ago)

	29-03-2005 09:57									#350
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quote: Originally posted by Ned "Just once, we need an elected official to stand up to a clearly incorrect ruling by a court. Any incorrect ruling will do, but my vote is for a state court that has ordered a disabled woman to be starved to death at the request of her adulterous husband. http://www.anncoulter.com/

Ann Coulter really does not have a grasp on this three branches balance of power thing, does she.

	29-03-2005 10:26									#351
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How is it a balance of power if the other two branches never attempt to check the judiciary?

	29-03-2005 10:34									#352
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten How is it a balance of power if the other two branches never attempt to check the judiciary?

The legislatures have the ability to pass laws directing the courts. In this specific case they tried and failed. Don't blame the judiciary for Congress' lack of political will/cohesion.

	29-03-2005 10:36									#353
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quote: Originally posted by Ned "Just once, we need an elected official to stand up to a clearly incorrect ruling by a court. Any incorrect ruling will do, but my vote is for a state court that has ordered a disabled woman to be starved to death at the request of her adulterous husband. ... President Andrew Jackson is supposed to have said of a Supreme Court ruling he opposed: "Well, John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it." The court's ruling was ignored. And yet, somehow, the republic survived. http://www.anncoulter.com/

So let me get this straight: in one breathtaking article, Ann Coulter piously expresses the need to save Terri's life AND her approval for the Trail of Tears, an action that would fit most modern definitions of genocide.

And Ned is quoting her on it approvingly.

Yeah, that all seems about right. Carry on.

	29-03-2005 10:39									#354
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quote: Originally posted by Ned even accepting the fact that she her higher level brian functions no longer exist, are you making a statement here that such people no longer have any right to live?

I make the statement that such "people" are not people. They are nothing more than bags of meat. Everything that makes you who you are, your personality, your beliefs, your memories: that is all in and only in your cerebral cortex. Once that's gone, not only will you never be who you once were, you'll never be anybody ever again. I would even go further and argue that if you could successfully destroy a person's frontal cortex but otherwise leave them alive, that you are a murderer.

	29-03-2005 10:47									#355
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Ann Coulter really does not have a grasp on this three branches balance of power thing, does she.

Ann is calling for executive intervention despite the court rulings. That is pure Jacksonian in its arrogance. But it is exactly what Reno/Clinton did in the Elian Gonzales case. Clinton/Rene were not impeached for that one, although the reaction of Foridians was so heated that it cost Gore the election.

I don't think that either Bush will stoop to what Jackson or Clinton/Reno did and ignore the judiciary as Republicans are supportive of the judiciary as a whole. But, given the enormous hosile reaction to their inaction, I suspect that this inaction will cost Jeb and maybe Republicans in general in future elections.

	29-03-2005 10:49									#356
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel The legislatures have the ability to pass laws directing the courts. In this specific case they tried and failed. Don't blame the judiciary for Congress' lack of political will/cohesion.

Just now on Hardball, a Congressman said that he is going to try to make one more attempt to pass legislation protecting Terri, or if it is too late for that, for future Terries.

	29-03-2005 10:52									#357
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Rufus, I don't support illegal executive intervention. Let me make that clear now.

However, Jeb Bush, IMHO, could have acted before he was enjoined. His failure to act in time is where he went wrong. He should have personally lead the troops on the rescue mission. If he had, he would have been successful, I am sure of that.

	29-03-2005 10:53									#358
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quote: Originally posted by Ned it is exactly what Reno/Clinton did in the Elian Gonzales case.

No, the Courts were on Elian's father's side.

	29-03-2005 10:54									#359
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Just now on Hardball, a Congressman said that he is going to try to make one more attempt to pass legislation protecting Terri, or if it is too late for that, for future Terries.

Which is the way this should be done. Why be angry with the judge for working in the framework given to him by the florida legislature.

The legislature passes laws, the judiciary interprets them and pushes the language to limits and beyond and the legislature responds by passing altered statutes. that's how this whole thing is supposed to function.

	29-03-2005 10:54									#360
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Che, I don't fundamentally disagree with you. My original post on this topic reflected the fact that were there no disputes on any of these issues and were it clear that the unfortunate victim of cardiac arrest left clear indications of no wish to continue in a vegative state, I would support what happened in the movie Million Dollar Baby.