29-03-2005 03:14									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Look at Israel. Orthodox Jews forbiding blocking roads in sabat and throwing rocks at cars, law forbiding import or production of pork even for non-Jewish people... .

actually plenty of Orthodox Jews, and even a few ultra-Orthodox are embarrased by the rock throwing stuff.

Law forbidding pork? Nu? There are countries that ban Kosher slaughter, for the sake of the animals. So Israel cares alot about the well being of pigs, whats it to you

	29-03-2005 03:15									#152
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quote: No, you're just stating your belief. You have no knowledge.

I think he was replying to me, actually.

	29-03-2005 03:16									#153
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My remark applies equally well no matter what he was responding to.

	29-03-2005 03:19									#154
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse My remark applies equally well no matter what he was responding to.

Very true...

	29-03-2005 03:40									#156
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quote: 2 Peter uses the word "scriptures" when speaking of Paul's writings (not done till 2nd century)

Then, Peter's letter could be the first example of such use of this word
Also, it may have been a bit changed by someone re-writing it in II century.

quote: 2 Peter mentions widespread persecution of Christians, which did not occur until the reign of Domitian

It may be a prophesy
Or exagerration of earlier persecutions

quote: 2 Peter mentions the problem of a failing belief among Christians in the imminence of the second coming, something which did not occur until the 2nd century

If He mentions it, it did

quote: No, you're just stating your belief. You have no knowledge.

Actually, it was a reply to Azazel. And yes, in this case I'm stating my belief in prof. Stepien's knowledge.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark actually plenty of Orthodox Jews, and even a few ultra-Orthodox are embarrased by the rock throwing stuff. Law forbidding pork? Nu? There are countries that ban Kosher slaughter, for the sake of the animals. So Israel cares alot about the well being of pigs, whats it to you

Kosher slaughter is cruel to animals. Israel does not care how pigs are slaughtered. And they do not care about their safe existance... For in result, pigs do not exist in Israel.
Anti-kosher laws come out of love for animals, anti-pig laws in Israel come out of hatred towards poor pigs.

	29-03-2005 03:48									#157
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I'm not a Jew, but to say Kosher slaughter is cruel to animals is ridiculous. Kosher slaughtering is meant to NOT cause undue pain and suffering by the animal. The animal must be killed quickly and cleanly.

	29-03-2005 03:49									#158
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quote: For in result, pigs do not exist in Israel.

I've got meat in the fridge that says otherwise.

	29-03-2005 03:49									#159
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I'm by no means a specialist, but isn't kosher slaughter about bleeding the animal alive?

	29-03-2005 03:51									#160
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Blood loss is a pretty painless death, IIRC.

	29-03-2005 03:53									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: Yeah, but it was a pretty poor one. Not my fault if you're too dense to get the point.

It's not my fault You're too dense to make a docent analogy.

quote: And in which situations do every other contemporary source contradict it?

Do all the other sources say explicitely: the massacre of Banu Qurayza didn't take place, or do they just don't mention it?
Anyway, You have to ask yourself if they do not have an interest in denying or not mentioning this fact.

quote: No, the oldest Chronicle is the Qur'an. Ishaq ostensibly wrote his Chronicle a century later.

Al-Qur'an is not a chronicle.

quote: Did it happen? Maybe, maybe not. The most rational guess is that it didn't happen. Of course, if you have an axe to grind with Islam and want to paint the religion as intrinsically intolerant, you might have an ideological reason to say that it did happen.

Why would Ibn Ishaaq lie?

	29-03-2005 03:55									#162
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quote: I've got meat in the fridge that says otherwise.

Perhaps the law was lifted, or is not respected

	29-03-2005 04:01									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson , anti-pig laws in Israel come out of hatred towards poor pigs.

Youre not required to hate pigs under kosher law - just not eat them. In fact i think its allowed to keep them as pets if you wish, or to, say, hunt for truffles.

Im sure the poor piggies are not so enamored of being eaten.

Wheres General Ludd when we need him?

	29-03-2005 04:04									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Perhaps the law was lifted, or is not respected

'"But Kibbutz Lahav, from the staunchly secular Hashomer Hatzair movement, found a loophole in the law. Dr. Dan Ratner, an expert in pig breeding and a geneticist, helped found the Israel Institute for Animal Studies.

"There was a law passed in 1963 banning pig farming in Israel. All the kibbutzim stopped raising pigs. But the law allowed pigs to be raised for research purposes. Any surplus pigs were allowed to be slaughtered," Ratner says.

Surplus?

"Oh we have thousands of surplus pigs every season," he says with a wink, adding that the slaughterhouse is one of the most economically stable kibbutz endeavors. '

	29-03-2005 04:13									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Leviticus is one of the big reasons most people laugh at the Christian fundimentalists who argue the Bible is the literal word of god and is infallable. .

they shouldnt - ive heard some really kewl sermons based on V'yikra - what you guys call Leviticus - of course they didnt feel constrained to a "literal" interpretation.

Its really frustrating when some Christian, or atheist, judges Judaism by how fundies use the Hebrew scriptures, without taking into account the Jewish traditions of interpretation (and yes, there are proof texts justifiying those approaches to interpretation, even if said proof texts may appear somewhat strained ) One of the things that gives me sympathy for the muslims when their texts are attacked - I have little doubt violence is being done to THEIR traditions by the taking of texts out of civilizational context.

	29-03-2005 04:14									#166
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Let me correct you there. The Mughal rulers of India were not really a Muslim state - the vast majority of the population remained Hindu.

The state and population aren't the same thing. The Moghul state was Muslim. The Moghul peoples were mostly Hindu. The Ottoman state was overwhelmingly Slav, Albanian, and Greek (except in the military), but most of the people in the empire were Turks. Keep the two concepts seperate.

	29-03-2005 04:16									#167
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse There is no Gospel according to Saint Peter.

There are two, IIRC, but they're Gnostic.

	29-03-2005 04:20									#168
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a sermon on Ve yikra (Leviticus)http://www.beth-am.org/index2.cfm?page=548

theres LOTS more.

	29-03-2005 04:57									#169
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LOTM:

That's a cool sermon (I agree almost entirely with it), but the Leviticus has nothing to do with it, save for the catch-phrase. A secular could have writtent just the same piece by using another catch-phrase, changing a few occurences to God, and taking a non-religious secular literature at the end.

It's not the same level of Leviticus-reality relationship as when a fundy excuses his anti-gay bigotry with the infamous Lev passage (and there are far worse passages that any fundy could excuse his bigotry with)

	29-03-2005 05:48									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Care to back that up? I'm curious about those sources you speak of because I never could find them. And "everyone acknowledges" doesn't necessarliy make it so...

Your claim is that there was not a historical Jesus? My claim is that there was a historical Jesus but that his miracles were fabricated to draw in the more gullible. There has been enough historical research to conclude there was a historical person named Jesus to laugh at or ignore your claim there was not.

	29-03-2005 05:56									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There has been enough historical research to conclude there was a historical person named Jesus to laugh at or ignore your claim there was not.

Erm, this is simply not true. You seem to be making stuff up left and right in this thread.

A link was provided for you about this subject. Why not read it first before making bald assertions?

	29-03-2005 06:10									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There has been enough historical research to conclude there was a historical person named Jesus to laugh at or ignore your claim there was not.

Er, no. There is serious scholarly debate about this. It's proabable there was a Jesus, but there are reasonable doubts.

	29-03-2005 06:23									#173
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SALMAN RUSHDIE a man who has lived for two decades under the threat of death from muslim fanatics speaks out about the 9/11 and how it relates to Islam. His take is the politicians have it wrong and 9/11 is a natural part of Islam due to the fanaticism of its founder.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Article...about_islam.htm

	29-03-2005 06:25									#174
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The state and population aren't the same thing. The Moghul state was Muslim. The Moghul peoples were mostly Hindu. The Ottoman state was overwhelmingly Slav, Albanian, and Greek (except in the military), but most of the people in the empire were Turks. Keep the two concepts seperate.

Actually the Ottoman military was originally predominantly Slav and Greek. The famous Janissaries, wo comprised the bulk of the Turkisn military well into the 19th century, were originally conscripted from the Balkans region. Only in the later 16th century did non-Europeans outnumber Europeans in the Janissary corps.

Given the massive size of the Ottoman empire at its peak no ethnic group could have claimed numerical predominance, though up to the 16th century Christians probably outnumbered Muslims.

	29-03-2005 06:30									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Blood loss is a pretty painless death, IIRC.

Maybe we could hang you by your heels, slit your throat, and then see if you agree.

	29-03-2005 06:41									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Maybe we could hang you by your heels, slit your throat, and then see if you agree.

Golly Oerdin. Don't take it so personally.

	29-03-2005 06:52									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo You understand the concept of an ANALOGY? The point is, only one source mentions it, no other source does. That doesn't bode well for its veracity.

Mohammed ordiering the genicide of the Jews is a well established fact. I'm sorry you have trouble accepting it but it happened. Mohammed tried to get the Jews to join his cult but the Jews believed the Miseijah would be an educated man from the temple while Mohammed was a peasant who was not a Jew so they would not accept him. Because of this Mohammed tried to kill, enslave, or exile all Jews from Arabia.

In short even if we ignore his raping, murdering, looting, and assassinating rivials we are still left with the unforgivable crime of genocide. Mohammed was an evil man just like Hitler, Stalin, or Saddam. The idolation of him by muslims is disgusting.

	29-03-2005 07:14									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Erm, this is simply not true. You seem to be making stuff up left and right in this thread. A link was provided for you about this subject. Why not read it first before making bald assertions?

Yeah, sure.... There was no one named JEsus who existed and everything about him from his followers, to the Jewish King's writings, to the Roman Governor's writings is all one giant international multimellianial Jewish conspiracy.

	29-03-2005 07:17									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Actually the Ottoman military was originally predominantly Slav and Greek. The famous Janissaries, wo comprised the bulk of the Turkisn military well into the 19th century, were originally conscripted from the Balkans region.

Janissaries were created when muslims would raid Christian towns and steal Christian children. The Sultan wanted to raise the children to be muslims and military slaves of his empire.

	29-03-2005 07:32									#180
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Sorry, but a story transcribed a century and a half years after the fact (perhaps up to three and a half centuries after the fact), being the sole citation among a plethora of biographies of Mohammed around the time period, including the only account contemporaneous with the alleged event (in the Qur'an) certainly doesn't constitute "well-established fact." I don't know whether or not it's true, but I do know that it isn't "well-established fact."

Your bigotry towards Islam is disgusting.

And it's sad that you can't even get the story right. Ishaq gave a totally different justification for the genocide in Medina.