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beingofone
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U.S.A.
Apr 2003
time: 05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I can't believe you would write this. 
How were there worshippers of Osiris in Egypt with no Osiris?
How were there worshippers of Mithra in Persia with no Mithra?
How were there Hindus in India with no Vishnu?
Since this is your logic, I suppose you are a pantheist, yes? Any group's religious beliefs must be correct, by the fact that they exist? |
I can`t believe your response, were any of the gods you mentioned humans that had been lived with by the believers? Before you laugh at someone, you might want to make sure to connect all the dots.
quote:
No, you didn't. You never said "I'm quoting a source." You cut and pasted with no attribution, which gives the impression it's your own writing. That's called plagiarism. |
Whatever
quote:
That's not the issue--the issue is that copied from a source and didn't cite it. What's more, you selectively omitted paragraphs from the source that undermined your argument. So you didn't source it because you knew that by doing so, you were "hiding" facts contrary to your claims.  |
Do you think you are the first to question my motives?
Take a number.
quote:
Bullshit! Did you even read your own source?
"Virtually all scholars dispute the attribution of the texts to Herod or Pilate, and consider them pure (and obvious) propaganda."
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"There exists a puerile correspondence consisting of a pretended Letter of Herod to Pilate and Letter of Pilate to Herod."
Even the Catholic church acknowledges these letters are frauds. They are quite obviously so. The only folks who believe these letters could possibly be genuine are fanatics who are desperate to prove their case. |
That is why I said it was a weak source.
What don`t you get?
quote:
Your dishonesty. I've cited two examples of it in this post alone. It's really unbecoming of one purporting to be a Christian. |
Everyone finds what they are looking for.
I suppose some would have trouble with Jesus as a carpenter, as some would find him to incompetent to make a chair.
quote:
Respected by who? You? I've no doubt you have no respect for anyone who disagrees with your beliefs in this matter.
How about :
Gerald Massey, Egyptologist and historical scholar
Elaine Pagels, Professor of Religion at Princeton University
Arthur Drews
John M. Robertson
Dr. Robert Price
To name a few. Thanks for the wish of luck, I'm sure that helped. |
Massey - A Gnostic mixed with some ancient Egyptian religious beliefs - no doubt he would deny historical existence - since Gnostics do not believe you, themselves, or anyone exists. Only consciousness exists in their belief.
Pagels- Another Gnostic proponent.
Drews - Ignored by all standard encyclopedias on philosophy - to wacky in his Gnostic beliefs. All is meaningless illusion type of teaching.
Robertson - Never heard of him, any one out there ever hear of him?
Price - An athiest on a crusade, and I don`t think he has a PHD, I could be wrong about that.
quote:
So? We have people in every faith who are willing to die for it. People are willing to die for even non-religious beliefs. The fact that people will die for a cherished belief is not evidence that the belief is true. Same fallacy as the first comment you made. |
Where I come from, that is proof of conviction. Sure someone could be wrong except that many claimed to have either been eye witnesses or known someone who had been. All they had to say was he was not real and they would have been released.
Of course you probably will not accept the scripture as reliable, even though it has been proven to be so.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:29
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quote:
Originally posted by beingofone
I can`t believe your response, were any of the gods you mentioned humans that had been lived with by the believers? Before you laugh at someone, you might want to make sure to connect all the dots.
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My advice is don't make it so easy to laugh at you then.
You post some ludicrous claim about historical evidence for Julius Caesar being lacking in comparison with the supposedly abundant evidence for the existence of a 'Jesus' and expect not to be laughed at ?
You haven't read much about the transition from the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire then, have you ?
Or heard about the wars between Rome and Gaul, Rome and the successor states of the Diadochi, Rome and Iran, or read any early Roman historians or seen any Roman art, statuary, or coinage...
Then to back up this claim with 'evidence' you cite a bunch of clapped out fakes (without bothering to speculate on or investigate the authenticity of those 'proofs') and say 'how did Christians get to Rome without there being the biblical Jesus ?'
Gee, I don't know, how did followers of Isis get there, or devotees of Serapis, or Mithras or Mani, or Etruscan or Celtic deities ?
The idea that Jesus was both human and divine is of course at the heart of several well-known early Christian 'heresies'- Arianism, Nestorianism et cetera.
How strange you should choose not to mention that- after all the humanity of a 'Jesus' is accepted by Jews and Muslims but the supposed divinity is rejected as it is by some Christians. Are you saying you have a copyright on the allegedly true meaning of Christianity ?
If so, I'm sure you'll be able to back it up with some of that copious 'contemporary' evidence that's just lying around.
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beingofone
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U.S.A.
Apr 2003
time: 05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
My advice is don't make it so easy to laugh at you then.
You post some ludicrous claim about historical evidence for Julius Caesar being lacking in comparison with the supposedly abundant evidence for the existence of a 'Jesus' and expect not to be laughed at ?
You haven't read much about the transition from the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire then, have you ?
Or heard about the wars between Rome and Gaul, Rome and the successor states of the Diadochi, Rome and Iran, or read any early Roman historians or seen any Roman art, statuary, or coinage... |
I am glad we can agree that Rome and Caesar existed.
quote:
Then to back up this claim with 'evidence' you cite a bunch of clapped out fakes (without bothering to speculate on or investigate the authenticity of those 'proofs') and say 'how did Christians get to Rome without there being the biblical Jesus ?' |
What clapped out fakes are you talking about?
The reference to Christians being in Rome was not about their travel and arrival.
quote:
Gee, I don't know, how did followers of Isis get there, or devotees of Serapis, or Mithras or Mani, or Etruscan or Celtic deities ? |
Because the Romans liked lots of dieties, it was politics, and it never hurts when you are a Roman to not offend gods. I guess they don`t like being ignored.
quote:
The idea that Jesus was both human and divine is of course at the heart of several well-known early Christian 'heresies'- Arianism, Nestorianism et cetera.
How strange you should choose not to mention that- after all the humanity of a 'Jesus' is accepted by Jews and Muslims but the supposed divinity is rejected as it is by some Christians. Are you saying you have a copyright on the allegedly true meaning of Christianity ? |
I didn`t mention it because it is not relevant to what anyone else has been talking about.
Could you explain to me how the humanity/divinity of Jesus has anything to do as to his imperical/historical existence?
quote:
If so, I'm sure you'll be able to back it up with some of that copious 'contemporary' evidence that's just lying around. |
Do you mean like millions of people and almost all historians believe there was a man called Jesus on whom Christianity was founded?
Kinda like there was a Gautama on which Buddhism was founded. Perhaps you don`t believe he existed either?
Maybe Gandhi didn`t exist because I don`t want him to.
He got thousands of people killed in India.
He said things like "Must I do all the evil I can before I learn to shun it? Is it not enough to know the evil to shun it? If not, we should be sincere enough to admit that we love evil too well to give it up."
This myth of a man is responsible for so much hardship on the world. He preached kindness, forgiveness, and peace. How could people be so gullible as to believe a man like this could do anything but sink the human race into ignorance and trauma.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by beingofone
I can`t believe your response, were any of the gods you mentioned humans that had been lived with by the believers? Before you laugh at someone, you might want to make sure to connect all the dots. |
Um, YES, they supposedly did live among their human believers. It's funny that you tell me to "connect the dots," when you don't bother to know what you're talking about. Look up Mithra and get back to me.
Good answer. 
quote:
Do you think you are the first to question my motives?
Take a number. |
Ibid.
quote:
That is why I said it was a weak source.
What don`t you get? |
Um, it's not "weak," it's fradulent. You apparently don't get the difference between the two. You cited it as "evidence" for Jesus, and were called on it because it's a fake. Perhaps you don't grasp debate very well, but in the normal course of debates, if one side uses a fraudulent text as supposed evidence for their view, it's seen as a sign of the weakness of their overall position.
quote:
Everyone finds what they are looking for.
I suppose some would have trouble with Jesus as a carpenter, as some would find him to incompetent to make a chair. |
This addresses what I said...how? Of course, this could also apply to your position. That is my entire point, afterall. Thanks for agreeing with it.
quote:
Massey - A Gnostic mixed with some ancient Egyptian religious beliefs - no doubt he would deny historical existence - since Gnostics do not believe you, themselves, or anyone exists. Only consciousness exists in their belief.
Pagels- Another Gnostic proponent.
Drews - Ignored by all standard encyclopedias on philosophy - to wacky in his Gnostic beliefs. All is meaningless illusion type of teaching.
Robertson - Never heard of him, any one out there ever hear of him?
Price - An athiest on a crusade, and I don`t think he has a PHD, I could be wrong about that. |
Yup, as I said, you would just pick and choose what you define as "respected." Clearly, you only respect those who agree with your point of view. What was it you said about finding what one is looking for again?
quote:
Where I come from, that is proof of conviction. Sure someone could be wrong except that many claimed to have either been eye witnesses or known someone who had been. All they had to say was he was not real and they would have been released. |
Again, this assumes the Biblical accounts are A) true and B) written by witnesses to the supposed events. That's the point of the argument--we have no proof that these are the case. It's patently circular to say that the Bible proves the claims are true and the claims prove the Bible is true. How can you not get that?
We don't have a single eye-witness account to these events. Not a one. The closest we come is Paul, who didn't witness them, claiming there were "hundreds" of witnesses, but not obliging us with an example. Well, gee, I could claim there were hundreds of witnesses to my having levitated 30 feet off the floor last night. I don't have to say who they are or give their actual accounts for you to believe it? Good to know. 
quote:
Of course you probably will not accept the scripture as reliable, even though it has been proven to be so. |
Right, because if a book gets a few things correct, it's obviously true word for word in every detail. So since the Iliad accurately placed the city of Troy, which has been proven to exist, I take it you believe in Athena, Zeus, Mars, etc.? Or since the Romances of Alexander get city names and locations correct, I guess you believe he was a god-man as well?
And you have the nerve to imply I have double standards in how I evaluate evidence!
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Oerdin
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of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:29
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I thought I read something about an ancient Jewish bone box (I forgot the official name of these relics) which was inscribed with the name of one of Jesus's brothers had been found. Supposedly it had the name and said brother of Jesus and was dated to the correct time period.
Last edited by Oerdin on 03-04-2005 at 02:06
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Dr Strangelove
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How thorough could the written documentation of the daily goings on in 1st century Judea be anyway? Wasn't there widespread destruction during the revolt of 70AD? Surely the Zealot rebels didn't painstakingly preserve the Roman records in liberated Jerusalem. In fact they may have had been more likely to destroy as many of those documents as possible. Furthermore the letters of Paul and the book of "Acts" makes it pretty clear that there was a concerted effort to eradicate the new religion in and around the vicinity of Jerusalem after Jesus' death, so one might wonder if there was a sufficient Christian persence in the area to warrant documentation at the time.
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I'm inclined to believe there was an historical basis for Jesus, just as there was for Noah's Flood. But I think the relationship between the accounts we have in the Bible and reality are about the same as the relationship between the legends of King Arthur and that reality. I think he's probably a composite character drawn from a number of sources. |
ok, than how do you explain the fact that in the lifetime of people who knew Him, there were accounts written about Him
you think that pretty much all jews (and even some of the others) would read the early accounts, and say WTF if such a person flat out didn't exist
face it, while it is reasonable to think that there are exaggerations and the like, it is flat out idiotic to think that He didn't exist (there is more evidence for Christ's existence than for Socrates)
JM
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Jon Miller
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no, the point is that if I started a religion and writing stories about a woman named Christefia who lived in Puerto Rico and did all these great things in the 60s, I think that a lot of people who point out that she never even existed, much less did those great things (my mom could for example) because they were alive at the time
while you can in general exagerate, you can't totally make up events that ahve no truth in them
JM
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Jon Miller
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I am not talking about the OT
and I agree that things get more uncertain the farther back you go
but for dragons and all those other gods, there is no dated written word from within 40 years of the circumstances in question
JM
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Jon Miller
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I am actually not away of all Hindus religious texts, so I won't comment on those
and I do beleive int he existence of Muhammad
we aren't dicussing whether or not the NT is correct, but whether or not there was a person who existed
and I don't argue that Bhuddah didn't exist either
you don't seem to understand that the books that exist today, existed in ~100 AD (and before, if we find pieces of tehm that date to than)
in fac,t I am not arguing even that it is not propaganda
so I am left with the conclusion that you are an idiot, and not worth my time
JM
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30-03-2005 23:28
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