28-03-2005 23:58									#31
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Seen it ages ago. Dumb fundies should be shot.

	29-03-2005 00:05									#32
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

What about customers rights, who have a freaking prescription?? I didn't know pharmacists had THAT kind of rights.

THat's like saying 'No I won't give you the medication ordered by a real doctor, because your a gay homosexualists, and your AIDS is the result of your own sinning.".

Maybe the analogy isn't accurate, but it's pretty damn close. This is, once again, a fundie affecting other peoples lives based on their own personal belief, that is not even shared by many, making other peoples lives more difficult. With pharmacists like this, the sun would still circle earth.

	29-03-2005 00:13									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I have no problem with pharmamists who won't sell such medication provided they clearly state that beforehand. I don't find a compelling interest to force these pharmacists to act against their morals.

	29-03-2005 00:14									#34
	Support Apolyton

If there's a possibility of doing against your morals in a job, maybe you shouldn't get that job to begin with.

	29-03-2005 00:15									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

If I was these people's boss they would be fired if they even thought about doing this.

	29-03-2005 00:18									#36
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I have no problem with pharmamists who won't sell such medication provided they clearly state that beforehand. I don't find a compelling interest to force these pharmacists to act against their morals.

Except wherein it's a national chain and the pharmacist is charged with following the policies of his employer. The initial case last year was at an Eckert pharmacy where the pharmacist refused to fill an order or even release it. They canned him, and the RR threw up a fuss.

Even so, like doctors, pharmacists are licensed to give a standard of care and service. I would think that any pharmacist who refused to dispense legal medications to people with a valid prescription from a doctor would be liable to lose their license.

	29-03-2005 00:20									#37
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Except wherein it's a national chain and the pharmacist is charged with following the policies of his employer.

In that case they are working for someone else, and refusing to do their job would be breaking their contract. I guess I should have specified pharmacists who own their own pharmacy. There still are one or two I hear.

	29-03-2005 00:24									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Aren't the RR supposed to be Republicans, and thus in favour of letting employers fire whomever they want?

	29-03-2005 00:32									#39
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Aren't the RR supposed to be Republicans, and thus in favour of letting employers fire whomever they want?

Not if doing the opposite helps get the Fundies to the polls on Election Day... (see Terri Shiavo thread)

	29-03-2005 00:36									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Pekka What about customers rights, who have a freaking prescription?? I didn't know pharmacists had THAT kind of rights.

They don't. I'm sure Republicans who want to pander to religious fundimentalists no matter what the law says will try to give them that right just as they tried to break the constitution's seporation of powers in the Terri Shiavo case but thankfully the US has a legal system to review such abuses.

	29-03-2005 04:42									#41
	Suffering from ads?

Um, chances are highly likely that this is a Catholic.

What makes the beliefs of this likely Catholic pharmacist fundamentalist?

Y'all should get your terminology straight.

	29-03-2005 04:45									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: What about customers rights, who have a freaking prescription??

How hard is it to take your business elsewhere? That is your right as a customer, to take your business where you will be treated with the respect you deserve.

The right of a businessman is to refuse service for whatever reason. This includes respecting the religious beliefs of your pharmacist staff.

Look at it this way, would you ask a member of any other religion to perform duties contrary to their religious beliefs just to satisfy your request as a customer?

	29-03-2005 04:45									#43
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In that case they are working for someone else, and refusing to do their job would be breaking their contract. I guess I should have specified pharmacists who own their own pharmacy. There still are one or two I hear.

"

Yeah, a poker buddy of mine owns one in Pittsburgh. And if he wanted to simply not carry birth control pills, you're right: that's his decision. But if he wants to carry them but only supply them to married women, then he'd still be in the wrong.

	29-03-2005 04:47									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Look at it this way, would you ask a member of any other religion to perform duties contrary to their religious beliefs just to satisfy your request as a customer?

if their religious beliefs are preventing them from doing their job, they should be fired

	29-03-2005 04:48									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Except wherein it's a national chain and the pharmacist is charged with following the policies of his employer. The initial case last year was at an Eckert pharmacy where the pharmacist refused to fill an order or even release it. They canned him, and the RR threw up a fuss.

Such policies are the same as barring all members of one religion from working there.

Would it be right for an employer to specify that no black people were to work there and to can a worker just because they were black, and that violated the policy of the company as a whole?

Or would the company be forced to revise their policy?

	29-03-2005 04:51									#46
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: But if he wants to carry them but only supply them to married women, then he'd still be in the wrong.

The trouble is more with the staff of a pharmacy who's beliefs are not shared by their employer. Why should the staff be held responsible for the decision of the owner to stock contraceptives?

Look at it this way. Suppose the pharmacist informed the owner ahead of time that she was willing to work there, but also of her own religious beliefs. Would that change your perception of this issue when that same employee stands up for what they believe?

	29-03-2005 04:53									#47
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: if their religious beliefs are preventing them from doing their job, they should be fired

Pharmacists are not cashiers. They are professionals. You may think them to be cashiers, but that does them a disservice.

What they do for their job goes well beyond dispensing condoms or contraceptives.

	29-03-2005 04:54									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Even though I'm pro-choice I respect these people. If they are morally opposed to selling something they shouldn't sell it.

	29-03-2005 04:54									#49
	Support Apolyton

I don't respect them... they are ignorant pieces of **** and should step in front of a bus

	29-03-2005 04:55									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

For the MA pill this is understandable, as given its capability to cause a zygote to fail to implant it could be considered an abortion drug, ergo a human rights issue to the people in question. But contraceptives...that's just trying to take a responsibility for other people's lives. If they aren't hurting anyone, they can decide on their own.

	29-03-2005 05:00									#51
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: There are pharmacists who mistakenly believe contraception is a form of abortion and refuse to prescribe it to anyone

Depends on the form of contraception.

The pill can work as an abortifacient, in hardening the endometrium to prevent the embryo from implanting.

	29-03-2005 05:06									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Such policies are the same as barring all members of one religion from working there.

No it isn't.

The discrimination is based not on religious beliefs but an unwillingness to ****ing do the job you're supposed to do.

What you just said is akin to saying that by forcing their employees to work with pig remains a pork rendering plant is discriminating against Jews and Muslims.

	29-03-2005 05:08									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Depends on the form of contraception. The pill can work as an abortifacient, in hardening the endometrium to prevent the embryo from implanting.

By definition the embryo is not an embryo before it implants.

It is a zygote.

	29-03-2005 05:08									#54
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Ben, do you think before you post?

	29-03-2005 05:10									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

"Look at it this way, would you ask a member of any other religion to perform duties contrary to their religious beliefs just to satisfy your request as a customer?"

Yes I would. I would first ask them if they seriously want to apply for the job, because there are things they need to do in it.

I don't consider getting your medication a normal business.

	29-03-2005 05:12									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The trouble is more with the staff of a pharmacy who's beliefs are not shared by their employer. Why should the staff be held responsible for the decision of the owner to stock contraceptives?

Because they work for him.

Duhpuhtuhcuhpuhtuh

You don't get to ****ing pick and choose what you will and won't do for your employer. Unless you have it written into your contract that you aren't going to provide X, Y and Z medicines you have to provide them when your employer tells you to.

	29-03-2005 05:14									#57
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Such policies are the same as barring all members of one religion from working there.

Not at all. Name me one religious doctrine that states a pharmacist can't give out birth control.

The very job of a pharmacist is to give prescribed medication to clients. If they can't do the job--for whatever reason--then they shouldn't hold it. Should an abortion clinic be forced to keep a doctor on staff who refuses to perform abortions on religious grounds?

quote: Would it be right for an employer to specify that no black people were to work there and to can a worker just because they were black, and that violated the policy of the company as a whole?

What a dumb analogy. We're not talking about wholesale probition against a particular "kind" of person working there. We're talking about an employer having the reasonable expectation that an employee will perform his/her job.

Employers are under no obligation to accomodate religious convictions that interfere with the ability of an employee to do the job, as this does.

It's really quite simple: You won't do the job, you can't keep the job.

	29-03-2005 05:14									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

And if you have it written into your contract that you are only going to provide contraceptives to married women then your employer had better make sure that he has somebody who's willing to provide them to all women on hand at all times. Otherwise he's made himself liable to be sued...

	29-03-2005 05:15									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

And we can turn it into another scenarion, what if ALL pharmacists would deny these pills because of their own beliefs? I could see that as a .. problematic situation, and if it's up to them to decide, then that could happen, right?

I don't think it's up to them to decide. Just like cops can't choose what kind of crimes they arrest for if they see it happening. If it's against their beliefs, well they still should do it, or find another job.

	29-03-2005 05:18									#60
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I'm going to go get a job at MacDonald's and then claim it's against my religious beliefs to serve non-Kosher food...