11-04-2005 17:45									#271
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Hey, don't forget that great swathes of the American midwest were settled by Germans, or that Germans settled parts of Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Venezuala, and Colombia.

Well, I was trying to limit it to Continental European territories.

However, he could have had Robsonstrasse (as was) in downtown Vancouver, British Columbia.


And Bismarck, North Dakota....

	11-04-2005 22:40									#272
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Did Hitler stop at taking just former German land when he annexed not only the Sudetenland, but also the rest of Czechoslovakia? No he did not! Germany never owned Bohemia or Slovakia. For that matter Germany never owned the Sudetenland. Germany's claim on the Sudetenland stemmed not from historical claims of ownership, but from demographics. Posnan and western Prussia had been Polish before they were German, and the peoples inhabiting those lands in the early 29th century were Polish. Why should they not have the same rights as the Sudetenland Germans? Come to think of it why shouldn't the slavic Czechs and Slovaks? The British refused to negotiate with the Germans because they saw no end ot his aggression. History proved them right. Remember that after Hitler finished France he turned on Yugoslavia and Greece, and finally he turned on the Soviet Union. Face it Hitler was acting out the grandiose dreams laid out in Mein Kampf. He wasn't interested in peace except as a weapon in adjunct to his war to subdue "non-aryan" humanity.

There were TWO treaties that Hitler was trying to undo. The second involved the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian empire. Now, if you conviently ignore this fact and the fact that Czechoslovakia was part of that Empire, one could make the case, as did the Brits, that Hitler was trying to conquer the world. What he was trying to do, rather, was restore the First Reich.

Now, it is clear that Hitler lied to the Brits about his immediate intentions in order to get what he wanted in the Sudetenland. The Brits seemed to be amenable to allowing reunification of German peoples under one rule. But their fear, clearly, was that Germany would swallow the whole of Poland. The Brits cared not one whit about the Poles. The Brits were concerned that Germany stay as weak as possible, following traditional Brit policy of weakening the strongest power in Europe. They had no real objection to the USSR taking a piece of Poland. They only objected to Germany taking back the pieces that were stolen from it in the Versailles Treaty.

	11-04-2005 22:46									#273
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The British refused to negotiate with the Germans because they saw no end ot his aggression. History proved them right. Remember that after Hitler finished France he turned on Yugoslavia and Greece, and finally he turned on the Soviet Union. Face it Hitler was acting out the grandiose dreams laid out in Mein Kampf. He wasn't interested in peace except as a weapon in adjunct to his war to subdue "non-aryan" humanity.

Why didn't you talk about Holland, Belgium et al? Clearly such a discussion weakens your point.

There was a war on beginning the spring of 1940 because Britain and France refused to negotiate for the previous six months. Subsequent decisions on the continent were strategic in nature. Friendly regimes became allies, unfriendly became conquered, and some, Ireland, Sweden, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, for example, remained neutral.

	11-04-2005 22:49									#274
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I grand you that the Treaty of Versailles was one of the fundamental cause of Nazis raising. However, it still does not explain further aggressions by Germany after it took back the lost territories. Attempts to whitewash German attacks beyond this point are simply revisionism.

Urban, I dealt with this in my previous post. But, almost all of Germany's moves from 1940 on were dictated by the strategic situation. Similarly, when Japan took the Dutch East Indies, it did no because the Dutch refused to sell them oil.

	11-04-2005 22:59									#275
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Let's see; in March of 1939 Hitler ordered the German occupation of the whole of Czechoslovakia (except for the part that Poland occupied), pressured Lithuania to return Memel and Poland to allow railway connections across its territory to allow Germany and East Prussia to be 'reconnected'. Hitler's occupation of the remainder of Czechoslovakia breached the Munich Teaty of 1938, wherein he stated that he had no further territorial demands to make in Europe. On the 31st March, 1939, Chamberlain declared formally that Great Britain would guarantee Poland's territorial integrity and that Hitler should reduce his demands. On the 3rd April Hitler ordered the armed forces to prepare for the invasion of Poland on 1st September. Hitler hoped, foolishly as it turns out, that Chamberlain would back down this time (as the Allies had over the Anschluss, Sudetenland and the occupation of rump Czechoslovakia) . He had no casus belli with Poland. I'll never put you on ignore, Ned. It's too entertaining. With regard to Micha's post re:Bohemia- the Czechs can boast a history going back to King Wenceslaus, and Austria-Hungary/The Habsburg Empire was not Germany, or 'german'. It happened to be ruled by an ethnic German minority. In any case, given events in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Czech nationalism and culture had flourished in the absence of a proper 'national' parliament, and Germans were for instance, a minority in Prague. Austria-Hungary's defeat by Prussia at Sadowa-Koniggratz also meant that it no longer took part in 'north' German affairs, and in any case going by the logic that Bohemia was supposedly German because there were Germans there, then Germany should also have occupied great swathes of Hungary and Rumania and of course where the Volga Germans lived in Russia. Using the same logic, Poland could legitimately have taken parts of East Prussia, Russia and Lithuania. Culture and population did not determine who owned what.

1) No doubt that the Brits had no reason to trust Hitler after Munich. I grant you that.

2) What interest did Britain have in interfering with German-Polish negotiations?

	11-04-2005 23:01									#276
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Austro-Hungary also owned Hungary, Galicia, Transylvannia, Croatia, Slovenia, and Bosnia-Herzegovina. Hitler never made a claim to restoring the Austro-Hungarian empire. In fact he often expressed a great deal of contempt for the old empire. Yes I'm aware that the Kingdom of Poland once had Saxons on its throne, however by agreement the two titles were never joined.

I really believe that this is not true at all. He felt that both treaties were forced on "Reich" which he believe, included Austria.

	12-04-2005 00:59									#277
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The controversy being discussed here was Ned's assertion that Britain was responsible for the outbreak of WW2 by not encouraging the Poles to give in to Hitler's demands. Am I correct in interpreting your post to mean that you're a advocate of Nazi theory?

Thank you for reading my posts thoroughly.

The war became WW2 because of the Allied DOW on Sep 3rd, 1939. Technically the UK and France have started the world war.

Of course the German invasion of Poland was the cause for that, but this is not subject of this discussion.

My previous post was about your argument that Germany had no claim on Poznan... Of course it had, because the Nazis declared it colonial territory of Germany. This was sufficient for Germany, while it surely sounds ludicrous to the rest of the world. This is linked to the ideology of the regime, which is well-known and which I don´t want to elaborate. After all, you seem to use "you´re a Nazi" to end a discussion.

	12-04-2005 02:21									#278
	Get a bigger avatar today!

some of you guys really mix up things. shut up Ned.

	12-04-2005 02:51									#279
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Micha Thank you for reading my posts thoroughly. The war became WW2 because of the Allied DOW on Sep 3rd, 1939. Technically the UK and France have started the world war. Of course the German invasion of Poland was the cause for that, but this is not subject of this discussion. My previous post was about your argument that Germany had no claim on Poznan... Of course it had, because the Nazis declared it colonial territory of Germany. This was sufficient for Germany, while it surely sounds ludicrous to the rest of the world. This is linked to the ideology of the regime, which is well-known and which I don´t want to elaborate. After all, you seem to use "you´re a Nazi" to end a discussion.

Was Germany notified of the alliance? I'm certain that it was. Usually the whole point of an alliance is that the members consider an attack on one to be virtually the same as an attack on every member. Sometimes an alliance may contain qualifying statutes allowing members to ignore their obligations in certain cases, such as when the member requesting aid is the aggressor. Such was not the case in September of 1939, because Germany attacked Poland, not the other way around. When Germany attacked Poland they therefore were surely aware that their actions would be considered an act of war against Britain and France. The resultant declarations issued by France and Britain then were merely pro forma since they had every right to consider Germany's attack on Poland to be a declaration of war upon them as well as Poland.

	12-04-2005 02:57									#280
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Such was not the case in September of 1940, because Germany attacked Poland, not the other way around.

Capital error. You lose the debate.

	12-04-2005 03:07									#281
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Was Germany notified of the alliance? I'm certain that it was. Usually the whole point of an alliance is that the members consider an attack on one to be virtually the same as an attack on every member. Sometimes an alliance may contain qualifying statutes allowing members to ignore their obligations in certain cases, such as when the member requesting aid is the aggressor. Such was not the case in September of 1940, because Germany attacked Poland, not the other way around. When Germany attacked Poland they therefore were surely aware that their actions would be considered an act of war against Britain and France. The resultant declarations issued by France and Britain then were merely pro forma since they had every right to consider Germany's attack on Poland to be a declaration of war upon them as well as Poland.

Yes they drew a line in the sand, on August 26th, five days before the attack, and during the middle of negotiations. This was NOT you typical defensive alliance. It was direct interference by Britain and France in ongoing negotiations between Germany and Poland.

I ask you as I asked Molly earlier, what business was it of Britain to torpedo ongoing negotiations between Germany and Poland? What right did they have to interfere?

	12-04-2005 03:07									#282
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Ned I really believe that this is not true at all. He felt that both treaties were forced on "Reich" which he believe, included Austria.

Prior to the war Hitler said repeatedly that he had no desire to resurrect the dual monarchy. He considered it to have been effete and decadent, not worthy of the new Germany.

In any case if we're arguing over the responsibility for WW2 I don't see how Hitler's desire to abnegate the treaties of Versailles shifts the blame for the war to Great Britain. Hitler concocted a charade as an excuse for attacking Poland. Evidently even he didn't think that his claim to have the right to renege on the treaty was sufficient reason to attack Poland so he devised a lie that Poland attacked him. Britain and France merely lived up to their treaty obligations to protect Poland. To any reasonable person the second world war began the moment that German soldiers entered Polish territory in September of 1939.

You seem to have dreamt up some fantasy that the world was obligated to give Hitler everything he demanded, and that Hitler was to be trusted to take nothing more than he had asked for even though experience in Czechoslovakia proved otherwise.

	12-04-2005 03:09									#283
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Capital error. You lose the debate.

Thanks for the editing.

	12-04-2005 03:12									#284
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Prior to the war Hitler said repeatedly that he had no desire to resurrect the dual monarchy. He considered it to have been effete and decadent, not worthy of the new Germany. In any case if we're arguing over the responsibility for WW2 I don't see how Hitler's desire to abnegate the treaties of Versailles shifts the blame for the war to Great Britain. Hitler concocted a charade as an excuse for attacking Poland. Evidently even he didn't think that his claim to have the right to renege on the treaty was sufficient reason to attack Poland so he devised a lie that Poland attacked him. Britain and France merely lived up to their treaty obligations to protect Poland. To any reasonable person the second world war began the moment that German soldiers entered Polish territory in September of 1939. You seem to have dreamt up some fantasy that the world was obligated to give Hitler everything he demanded, and that Hitler was to be trusted to take nothing more than he had asked for even though experience in Czechoslovakia proved otherwise.

Dr. Strangelove, we will never know, will we, what would have happened had not Britain put its big nose into the middle of negotiations between Germany and Poland. I am sure that Germany would have gotten what it wanted from Poland. But you also seem to be sure that Germany would have taken all of Poland as it did Czechoslovakia. But the difference between Czechoslovakia and Poland was that Czechoslovakia had been part of the First Reich and part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Clearly Britain was pursuing its on Imperial interests in attempting to block Germany's reconstitution of the Reich. That is the point I am making here. She had no real interest in Poland.

	12-04-2005 03:19									#285
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

actually the first side to bring up the nazis automatically loses the debate, so this thread should be a closed case.

	12-04-2005 03:27									#286
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Here's what Hitler had to say to FDR in 1939:

"Hitler's ...address of 28 April 1939 (four months before the outbreak of war in Europe) which were directed personally to President Roosevelt:

"I have taken no step that violated foreign rights, but I have restored the rights which had been violated twenty years ago (at Versailles}. Within the territory of the present Greater German Reich there is no part which did not belong to it since ancient times or was not subject to its sovereignty. Long before the American continent was discovered by the White Man, this Reich existed. President Roosevelt believes that the leaders of the great nations have it in their power to protect the nations from the imminent disaster of war. If this is correct, it is criminal rashness if the leaders of nations who wield great power do not curb their newspapers which agitate continuously for war. It would be an honorable achievement if President Roosevelt were to redeem the lofty promises of President Wilson. That would certainly be a practical contribution to the moral consolidation of the world ...

President Roosevelt, Hitler continued, I understand that the vastness of your realm and the immeasurable wealth of your resources make you feel yourself responsible for the destiny of the entire world. My scope, however, is much more modest. I have assumed power in a country with 140 inhabitants per square kilometer, not 15. Billions of German savings in gold and foreign exchange were taken from us. We lost all our colonies. In 1933 we had seven million unemployed, as well as several million part-time employed, and we faced ruin. In the past six and half years I have devoted all of my effort to mobilizing the energy of my people, who have been outlawed and abandoned by the rest of the world. Furthermore I have tried to remove, page by page, that (Versailles) treaty which, with its 448 articles, represents the crudest violation ever imposed on nations and individuals."

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p-41_Braun.html

	12-04-2005 03:29									#287
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion actually the first side to bring up the nazis automatically loses the debate, so this thread should be a closed case.

The Nazis are rightly condemned for their racism. They are rightly condemned for their one-party, totalitarian rule. But, neither is the reason for the outbreak of WWII.

	12-04-2005 03:42									#288
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Ned Yes they drew a line in the sand, on August 26th, five days before the attack, and during the middle of negotiations. This was NOT you typical defensive alliance. It was direct interference by Britain and France in ongoing negotiations between Germany and Poland. I ask you as I asked Molly earlier, what business was it of Britain to torpedo ongoing negotiations between Germany and Poland? What right did they have to interfere?

Your timeline of events is a little off Ned. Please see: http://www.worlwar-2.net/prelude-to...o-war-index.htm

If you scan the timeline you'll see that Hitler began demanding concessions from Poland well before August 1939. The Polish repeatedly refused to negotiate the surrender of territory throughout 1939. The British-Polish Mutual Assistance Pact was signed in June, 1939, and France was included in the pact on August 25, 1939, but on August 27, 1939 Chamberlain encouraged the Polish government to enter negotiations with Germany. The Polish refused to do so, and Hitler attacked.

	12-04-2005 03:59									#289
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Your timeline of events is a little off Ned. Please see: "http://www.worlwar-2.net/prelude-to-war/prelude-to-war-index.htm" . If you scan the timeline you'll see that Hitler began demanding concessions from Poland well before August 1939. The Polish repeatedly refused to negotiate the surrender of territory throughout 1939. The British-Polish Mutual Assistance Pact was signed in June, 1939, and France was included in the pact on August 25, 1939, but on August 27, 1939 Chamberlain encouraged the Polish government to enter negotiations with Germany. The Polish refused to do so, and Hitler attacked.

I'll check that out, as it was my understanding that the Poles refused to negotiate at the behest of Britain.

	12-04-2005 04:05									#290
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ned Here's what Hitler had to say to FDR in 1939: "Hitler's ...address of 28 April 1939 (four months before the outbreak of war in Europe) which were directed personally to President Roosevelt: "I have taken no step that violated foreign rights, but I have restored the rights which had been violated twenty years ago (at Versailles}. Within the territory of the present Greater German Reich there is no part which did not belong to it since ancient times or was not subject to its sovereignty. Long before the American continent was discovered by the White Man, this Reich existed. President Roosevelt believes that the leaders of the great nations have it in their power to protect the nations from the imminent disaster of war. If this is correct, it is criminal rashness if the leaders of nations who wield great power do not curb their newspapers which agitate continuously for war. It would be an honorable achievement if President Roosevelt were to redeem the lofty promises of President Wilson. That would certainly be a practical contribution to the moral consolidation of the world ...

And this means exactly what? Hitler wanted to recover the Holy Roman Empire? If that were the case Poland was the wrong direction to move, because neither Poland nor (non-Brandenburg) Prussia ever belonged to the HRE. Even if Bohemia had pnce been included, Slovakia didn't belong to the HRE either. If Hitler wanted to restore Germany to the HRE borders then he should have turned ans seized northern Italy. That's not what he did. Why? Becauuse first and foremost Hitler was a psychopathic liar.

quote: President Roosevelt, Hitler continued, I understand that the vastness of your realm and the immeasurable wealth of your resources make you feel yourself responsible for the destiny of the entire world. My scope, however, is much more modest. I have assumed power in a country with 140 inhabitants per square kilometer, not 15. Billions of German savings in gold and foreign exchange were taken from us. We lost all our colonies. In 1933 we had seven million unemployed, as well as several million part-time employed, and we faced ruin. In the past six and half years I have devoted all of my effort to mobilizing the energy of my people, who have been outlawed and abandoned by the rest of the world. Furthermore I have tried to remove, page by page, that (Versailles) treaty which, with its 448 articles, represents the crudest violation ever imposed on nations and individuals." http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p-41_Braun.html

Really? The treaty of Versailles was nothing compared to the treaties with which the Prussians, Austrians and Russians devoured Poland at the end of the 18th century. The greatest land adjustment incurred by the Germans was the correction of that ancient injustice. The Germans, in collaboration with Austria and Russia deprived the Polish people of their nation. Do you doubt that it was just to give them back their country?

The Austro-Hungarian Empire was of course completely dissolved, but then the dual monarchy wasn't really a country. It was a dyanasty pretending to be a country. The Hungarians, Romanians, Czecho-slovaks, and southern slavs were equally entitled to their own nations as were the Germans. Do you believe otherwise? If not then you must admit that nothing was really taken from the Germans that was theirs.

	12-04-2005 04:06									#291
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion actually the first side to bring up the nazis automatically loses the debate, so this thread should be a closed case.

Threads about WW2 are automatically excluded from this rule.

	12-04-2005 05:36									#292
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Dr. Strangelove, you are right on the last minute effort by the Brits to begin negotiations. You are wrong about the date of the Brit. mutual defense pact with Poland. It was Aug. 26. But, prior to that, Britain had given a "blank check" to Poland at the end of March. That is when the Poles stopped negotiating.

In late August, Hitler presented his terms to Poland. Through intercepted traffic between Poland and Britain, he found that Poland still had no intention to negotiate. Thus, Hitler order the war to begin. He was still certain, though, that France and Britain would not intervene.

http://www2.bc.edu/~heineman/roadiv.html

Here are the terms Gemany offered:

German demands:
1. Danzig will become German. Gdingen remain Polish. Polish interests will be protected in Danzig.

2. Corridor: Plebiscite for entire area enclosed in the line Netze-Thorn-Marienburg, on the basis of the population figures for 1910 (Kinzel joked that the Poles could just as well demand it on the basis for the figures of 1410).

3. Occupation of the Corridor by an international contingent of troops until the plebiscite.

4. Reparations for all damage done to German speakers within Poland.

	12-04-2005 07:26									#293
	Inflate your Upload Space

The Allies would have been fools to think that Hitler would have just left it at those demands. It's like a kid pulls out a knife, and threatens to stab you, but you punch him first, and get away. Who started the fight?

	12-04-2005 07:33									#294
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ned Dr. Strangelove, you are right on the last minute effort by the Brits to begin negotiations. You are wrong about the date of the Brit. mutual defense pact with Poland. It was Aug. 26. But, prior to that, Britain had given a "blank check" to Poland at the end of March. That is when the Poles stopped negotiating.

Yet another site also lists the date of the first British-Polish Mutual Assistance Pact as being April 6, 1939. (I mis-read the date on the first site as June 4 because it was listed as 6 - 4 - 1939 according to European notation.) http://www.polishholocaust.org/1939.html

quote: In late August, Hitler presented his terms to Poland. Through intercepted traffic between Poland and Britain, he found that Poland still had no intention to negotiate. Thus, Hitler order the war to begin. He was still certain, though, that France and Britain would not intervene. http://www2.bc.edu/~heineman/roadiv.html Here are the terms Gemany offered: German demands: 1. Danzig will become German. Gdingen remain Polish. Polish interests will be protected in Danzig. 2. Corridor: Plebiscite for entire area enclosed in the line Netze-Thorn-Marienburg, on the basis of the population figures for 1910 (Kinzel joked that the Poles could just as well demand it on the basis for the figures of 1410). 3. Occupation of the Corridor by an international contingent of troops until the plebiscite. 4. Reparations for all damage done to German speakers within Poland.

In Hitlers hands item #4 would certainly have meant the eventual annexation of Poland. I can guarentee you he would have made excessive claims and then would have had his boys march in when the Polish didn't pay what he asked.

	12-04-2005 07:37									#295
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion actually the first side to bring up the nazis automatically loses the debate, so this thread should be a closed case.

The topis of this debate is probably painful to you Ecthelion, and I'm sorry, but it has to be done. We can't allow this sort of pro-fascist historical revisionism remain unanswered.

	12-04-2005 07:42									#296
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Ned Similarly, when Japan took the Dutch East Indies, it did no because the Dutch refused to sell them oil.

I am not sure if you are condemning their action or not.

It's like saying that you killed Ted Striker and took over his house because he refuses to sell you porn. Or something.

	12-04-2005 07:50									#297
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Did Hitler stop at taking just former German land when he annexed not only the Sudetenland, but also the rest of Czechoslovakia? No he did not! Germany never owned Bohemia or Slovakia. For that matter Germany never owned the Sudetenland. Germany's claim on the Sudetenland stemmed not from historical claims of ownership, but from demographics.

This doesn't have much to do with your point, but nothing had ever historically belonged to Germany, it was at the time an artificial country built upon a new identity in 1871 - the Germanic one. Their territorial claims had to be based on demography.

	12-04-2005 07:53									#298
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I find it hilarious that Ned defends the war in Iraq while at the same time blaming the British for their resistance in WW2.

	12-04-2005 07:54									#299
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I am not sure if you are condemning their action or not. It's like saying that you killed Ted Striker and took over his house because he refuses to sell you porn. Or something.

See? That's my point. So young and so angry. D**n that rap music!

	12-04-2005 08:19									#300
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It's like saying that you killed Ted Striker and took over his house because he refuses to sell you porn. Or something.