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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
There are numerous instances of generals complaining about the logistics and other operational limitations which made their goals in the end unrealistic. Several were sacked immediately while others were made to understand that their orders were not negotiable.
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No, generals were sacked during the winter of 41-42 for not holding their ground. No generals were sacked for not attacking deep into the Soviet Union during the summer offenses.
Had the Germans advanced half as far, they still would have achieved a major victory, and they would have been in a better position to defend their lines.
The German generals were reckless and paid the price for their stupidity.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
BTW, the Ural factories were move there in response to the German invasion. This was hardly to be "expected." So the lack of German bomber able to hit the Ural factories says nothing about Hitler's plans vis-a-vis the USSR. |
You can't have it both ways Ned. You're pwn'd.
The Lancaster was developed in about a year. The Germans had time to develop long-range bombers.
The reason the Germans didn't was because they never understood the importance of strategic bombing. They never understood the importance of destroying supply lines. Instead, they focused on destorying military unit. Throughout the war, the Germans never seriously disrupted the Russian supply routes behidn the lines. Yet another example of the German stupidity during the war.
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Kalius
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Kriegsgewitter
Aug 2002
time: 16:31
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quote:
OK, you're actually right on the bomber issue. A point remains, though: Germany didn't have any medium-range fighter to escort the bombers to Britain. If they didn't develop any, there must be a reason for it, right? |
Well, he Me109 was chosen as the main fighter of the German army back in the mid 1930s over the He100. Even then, it took around 5 years for a plane to go from prototype to the real, fully fledged fighting plane. The Me262 is an excellent example of this. They had, after roughly 3 years of development, about a half-strength fleet of Me262s. The Me109 was chosen as the be-all fighter of Luftwaffe, and as the Luftwaffe was still growing, it made sense to choose one fighter, make a huge number of them, and you'd be set.
Originally, the Me109 was chosen over the He100 mainly because it was more stable, easier to fix, and was very quick on landing. Too quick, in fact. By the time the He100 caught up, the Me109 was already in full fledged production and there simply weren't enough engines to go around at the time. It was faster, more stable and had a larger range than the Me109, but, it was too late.
Time had run out, and the Luftwaffe only had the capacity to make one choice. They merely said the Me109 was "good enough".
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalius
Well, he Me109 was chosen as the main fighter of the German army back in the mid 1930s over the He100. Even then, it took around 5 years for a plane to go from prototype to the real, fully fledged fighting plane. The Me262 is an excellent example of this. They had, after roughly 3 years of development, about a half-strength fleet of Me262s. The Me109 was chosen as the be-all fighter of Luftwaffe, and as the Luftwaffe was still growing, it made sense to choose one fighter, make a huge number of them, and you'd be set.
Originally, the Me109 was chosen over the He100 mainly because it was more stable, easier to fix, and was very quick on landing. Too quick, in fact. By the time the He100 caught up, the Me109 was already in full fledged production and there simply weren't enough engines to go around at the time. It was faster, more stable and had a larger range than the Me109, but, it was too late.
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At the time of the Battle of Britain the Germans did have the twin engined Me 110 which was originally designed as a long range fighter. Unfortunately it did not perform well against the Spitfire and the Hurricane and was quickly removed from that role.
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Dr Strangelove
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Some units however gleefully competed with the SS to see who could kill more Jews and Soviet civilians. I believe this was particularily true in Army Group South.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalius
Well, he Me109 was chosen as the main fighter of the German army back in the mid 1930s over the He100. Even then, it took around 5 years for a plane to go from prototype to the real, fully fledged fighting plane. The Me262 is an excellent example of this. They had, after roughly 3 years of development, about a half-strength fleet of Me262s. The Me109 was chosen as the be-all fighter of Luftwaffe, and as the Luftwaffe was still growing, it made sense to choose one fighter, make a huge number of them, and you'd be set.
Originally, the Me109 was chosen over the He100 mainly because it was more stable, easier to fix, and was very quick on landing. Too quick, in fact. By the time the He100 caught up, the Me109 was already in full fledged production and there simply weren't enough engines to go around at the time. It was faster, more stable and had a larger range than the Me109, but, it was too late.
Time had run out, and the Luftwaffe only had the capacity to make one choice. They merely said the Me109 was "good enough". |
If it take three years (or more) to develop a fighter, I hardly think the Germans could have develop a long range bomber in one.
This all suggests that the Germans had no plans for going to war with Britain and that Britain force war on them against their will. This supports my underlying thesis that the greatest German mistake was underestimating the Brits.
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Kalius
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Kriegsgewitter
Aug 2002
time: 16:31
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quote:
If it take three years (or more) to develop a fighter, I hardly think the Germans could have develop a long range bomber in one.
This all suggests that the Germans had no plans for going to war with Britain and that Britain force war on them against their will. This supports my underlying thesis that the greatest German mistake was underestimating the Brits. |
You have the remember the Luftwaffe was completely nuked by Versailles. By the time they started rebuilding it, they had NO manufacturing capacity or wide-spread experience in building the things, and those that did have it were overly rusty. They had no engines by the time they decided "Yep, let's make a Luftwaffe", nor did they have any major manufacturing plants designed for building planes.
It took them a few years to sort this out, and another few to sort out a fighter to choose. By this time it was around 1937 and they thought the Me109 was simply good enough. Now they have some experience, plans are drawn up, and they can develop planes faster.
The Brits on the other hand didn't stop their RAF production, and the Hurricanes and Spitfires were the result of many years offine tuning over the inter-war period. For the record, the Avro Lancaster was developed in less than a year, the prototype flying in 1941, and the fully fledged squadron entering service in early 1942.The Handley-Page Halifax took just over a year. In stark contrast, the Ju-88 took nearly 3 years to enter service, The He-111 took 2 years, and the He-177, the only heavy bomber used by Germany in WWII, took 3-4 years to enter service.
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Dr Strangelove
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As I implied above, by late 1941 Hitler was spoiling for a fight with the US. From late 1939 until the end of 1941 the maritime war zone, the region in which the germans declared that they would sink anything they wanted to had been confined to the eastern Atlantic and the Mediterranean. The Kriegsmarine was getting ready to shift it's submarine campaign from the eastern Atlantic to the western Atlantic and Carribean. Surely someone must have realised that such a move would increase the sinking of American ships and that the US would never have been able to accept the extension of the maritme war zone to include the entire Atlantic and Carribean outside of its 3 mile territorial limit. I doubt that FDR would have had any trouble getting Congress to declare war after the first couple of American tankers and freighters had been sunk off the coast of Florida.
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08-04-2005 21:47
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