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shawnmmcc
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How many dialects, and actual seperate languages, went into the creation of what has become modern France. I know the political entities, but I have no clue about the linguistic map except for the primary languages today - and Breton which is a Celtic language. For example, did the Burgundians have their own language/dialect? I've also heard the term Norman French, implying some sort of dialect, at least in the context of the middle ages.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:31
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnmmcc
How many dialects, and actual seperate languages, went into the creation of what has become modern France. I know the political entities, but I have no clue about the linguistic map except for the primary languages today - and Breton which is a Celtic language. For example, did the Burgundians have their own language/dialect? I've also heard the term Norman French, implying some sort of dialect, at least in the context of the middle ages. |
Norman French, Provencal, Basque, Gascon French, the Italianate territories next to Piedmont-Savoy, bits of Spain picked up in the Thirty Years' War... and the various Creoles from Martinique to Reunion of course.
http://french.about.com/od/dialfrance/index_a.htm
Should help you out.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by MRT144
only ned would turn a thread about nazis into a thread about how evil democrats are. youre such a *****made republican ned, just come clean. |
MRT, if you note my posts over time, I have high praise for some Democrats and tremendous scorn for some Republicans. What I do not understand, though, is how the Democrat party, as a whole, can and does still honor its founder, Andrew Jackson, who personifies the evil we now condemn when speaking of Hitler.
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MRT144
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Seattle Washington
Oct 2002
time: 21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
MRT, if you note my posts over time, I have high praise for some Democrats and tremendous scorn for some Republicans. What I do not understand, though, is how the Democrat party, as a whole, can and does still honor its founder, Andrew Jackson, who personifies the evil we now condemn when speaking of Hitler. |
ive seen quite the oppisite in every one of your posts. You condemn the left for anything and everything, while letting rightist transgressions to the brink of absurd go unscathed.
you may admire some democrats but nothing you have EVER posted has made anyone believe you are anything than a rightwing fanboy
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
shawn, good post. De Toqueville did described the hunting of animals by the Indians as critical to the incompatiblity between to two cultures. He noted that the primary thing the Indians had to trade with the Euro's was pelts. To get steel knifes, for example, Indians had to overhunt their territory. This had the unfortunate effect of depleting their source of food, forcing them to sell their land and move West.
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Native tribes DID NOT move west voluntarilly- tribes were forced to move west by the pressure of western settlers. There were certainly campaigns of ethnic cleansing in New Englamd (please name New England tribes that migrated west..). The one main exmaples we do have, of the Cherokees, was a forced migration (which classifies as ethnic cleansing). If migrations had been voluntary, tribes would have gone whereever, NOT to some designated spot of land created by the Federal government.
quote:
That may Euro's cheated or tried to cheat the Indians of their land is not beyond doubt. But this is different in kind than what we hear here so often about what happened to the North American Indians: continuous ethnic cleansing by wars of extermination. |
What history have you been reading? A simple and obvious example of attempts to exterminate the Natives comes from the events after the Civil War- for example, the senseless wholesale extermination of the Buffalo, in order to starve the plains tribes. Then there are campaigns by the likes of Custer and the burning of whole villages-Sheridan saying "the only good Indian in a dead Indian" tells volumes about the attitudes towards the natives. Then of course comes the attempt to exterminate Indian culture once they are forced by military force to enter reservations and the banning of their own traditions.
Only you Ned would state that there were only "shameful incidents".
quote:
There were many shameful incidents in our relations to the natives. But I still rank up there at the very top what Jackson did to the Cherokees after they had won their case at the Supreme Court. |
That certainly is a high one- the constant breaking of treaties ratified by the Senate is another- acts just as unconstitutional but never punished.
Reservations are fancy names for internment camps.
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MRT144
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Seattle Washington
Oct 2002
time: 21:31
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ned, youre against anything that questions right wing america, even if its absurd. you go to great lengths to take on leftist america etc etc.
i am not arguing that democrats are good or bad. im arguing that your purported beliefs and stated beliefs on this board are entirely at odds, and this is why people dont listen to you, and give you no credibility.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by MRT144
ned, youre against anything that questions right wing america, even if its absurd. you go to great lengths to take on leftist america etc etc.
i am not arguing that democrats are good or bad. im arguing that your purported beliefs and stated beliefs on this board are entirely at odds, and this is why people dont listen to you, and give you no credibility. |
mrt, in a way, true. For example, even though I am not religious myself, I tend to defend religious freedom which I perceive to be under attack from the left.
As to no one listening to me, I hardly think that is the case. But if it is, I will stop bothering you kind folks, as my presence here is not welcome.
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MRT144
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Seattle Washington
Oct 2002
time: 21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
As to no one listening to me, I hardly think that is the case. But if it is, I will stop bothering you kind folks, as my presence here is not welcome. |
you contribute in your own way ned, as do i, but for the love of god, stop being so goddamn ridiculous, ALL THE TIME.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
Absolutely. An uneasy truce had persisted between the Soviet Union and Japan in Asia after all, despite the Soviet's previous military successes against them, and despite Japan being Germany's ally and the German triumphs in the early Russian campaign.
I suspect that German sinking of American merchant marine would have eventually constituted a sufficiently big enough casus belli- but it's still a 'what if?' . |
Even as the IJN task force was sailing for the waters north of Hawaii German submarines were moving towards the Caribbean Sea. I sincerely doubt that Americans would have long tolerated the shifting of the war at sea to the American lake. A couple of sinkings near Florida would have been all that was required to motivate Congress towards a declaration of war.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:31
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The linked article http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p-41_Braun.html by German diplomat Karl Otto Braun is a must read for people truly interested in this topic. It details the diplomatic maneuvering that lead to Japan, WWI allies of Great Britain, joining the axis and why Japan eventually attacked the US. Among the points made, I found the following intriquing:
1) The NYTimes almost single-handedly whitewashed the terror of Stalin and was a primary cause of American pro-Soviet attitudes.
2) Had Roosevelt not cancelled the economic cooperation treaty with Japan in August 1939, Japan would have realligned its relations to accommodate the US in reaction to the German-Soviet non aggression pact. Instead, unflagging American hostility forced Japan back into alliance with Germany in 1940.
3) A soviet spy in the German diplomatic staff informed Stalin of Japan's decision to not attack the Soviets in Siberia. Upon receiving this info, 200,000 crack troops were dispatched West in time to rescue Moscow in 1941.
4) The US/Soviet union was behind the overthrow of the pro-German Yugoslavian government in 1941 forcing Germany to delay Barbarossa by 5 weeks.
5) TE Lawrence (of Arabia) was assassinated by the Brits to prevent him from meeting with Hitler.
6) An Indian national army organized by the Japanese and which fought the Brits in Burma was the central reason why Britain withdrew from India as it could no longer trust the Indians.
7) Roosevelt was informed 60 days prior to Pearl Harbor of the impending Japanese attack.
8) The conventional wisdom about the harsh treated of Soviet citizens contributing to German defeat is also shared by the Germans.
"The next major event was the visit of Foreign Minister Yosuke Matsuoka to Berlin, Rome and Moscow. I accompanied Matsuoka in Hitler's special train from Berlin to the Italian border. We had dinner together. Matsuoka was deeply impressed by his conversation with Hitler and spoke enthusiastically of "the Führer." Hitler had urged Matsuoka to attack Singapore while strictly avoiding any steps against the United States. Matsuoka was unable to give any military assurances, but he hinted that Japan would be ready for action in May.l5 The Japanese Ambassador in Berlin, Hiroshi Oshima, traveled with Matsuoka on his return journey to Malkinia, the new German-Soviet border crossing. Confidentially I learned from Oshima that Hitler had not mentioned the strained relations with Stalin to Matsuoka, but he (Oshima) had warned his superior not to sign a neutrality agreement with the USSR, as Molotov had been urging. Through the train window Oshima pointed out the long German trains at Posen transporting weapons. But Matsuoka had his instructions and Hitler, whom he had informed about the forthcoming agreement, avoided contradicting him. And so the Soviet-Japanese neutrality agreement was signed. The Soviets promised 100,000 tons of crude oil from North Sakhalin as an added inducement. Matsuoka had been Americanized from his youth and was a talkative character. Hitler was also understandably fearful of revealing his secret plan to attack the USSR. And yet, long after the war I learned, to my great embarrassment, that Hitler had revealed-four weeks before Matsuoka's visit-to Prince Paul of Yugoslavia that he would attack the Soviet Union in early summer.16 Paul was Anglophile and had a Russian mother. The American Ambassador in Belgrade, Arthur Bliss Lane, immediately reported the news of Hitler's plan to Washington. Washington informed Moscow at once! This contrast proves that the German-Japanese Pact was in reality not a functioning alliance. Poisonous sacro egoismo prevailed on both sides. In this respect Roosevelt treated his allies much better. Morgenthau was very generous to Britain with American taxpayers' money because he was always afraid that Britain might be seduced by German peace proposals or that Stalin might change sides again. Even today most Germans are convinced that Hitler's attack against the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941 was a serious blunder. I do not share that view. In his memoirs, Malaya Zemlya, Leonid Brezhnev openly admitted Soviet intentions to attack a weakened Germany.o7 But apart from that, the best proof of Soviet intentions is the fact that the attacking German armies encountered an enormous concentration of Soviet forces being mobilized against the West. That's the reason for the enormous numbers of Soviet prisoners taken in the summer of l941.t8 It is ironic that Hitler's armies crossed the Soviet border exactly 129 years after Napoleon began his campaign against Russia. The overthrow of the pro-German government in Belgrade, which was well organized by Roosevelt and Donovan with Stalin's help, delayed Hitler's original timetable against the USSR for five weeks. This was perhaps Roosevelt's greatest triumph during the war. He saved Stalin! *
Hitler failed in Russia primarily because he waged war only militarily and not politically. In Norway, Holland, Belgium and France he had carefully observed the golden rule of Alexander the Great in Asia and Egypt-magnanimity towards the vanquished. However, against the Bolsheviks Hitler was blind with a rage that resembled Roosevelt's hatred of him. It was Hitler's error to occupy the Soviet Embassy in Berlin instead of having it put under the protection of a neutral power. It was Hitler's error not to have formed national Russian and Ukrainian governments. It was Hitler's error not to have abolished collectivized agriculture and given land to the peasants. If he had done these things, a fire of popular insurrection would have swept away Stalin's tyranny. Russian armies shoulder to shoulder with the German forces would have smashed Bolshevism forever.
In 1983 I discovered a lengthy report by Felix Frankfurter in the Manuscript Division of the Library of Congress. Roosevelt sent Frankfurter to the USSR in 1941. He visited the retreating Soviet front near Rostov in October 1941 and, along with Allied military specialists, speculated that Hitler's armies might reach the Ural mountains, leaving only Vladivostok as the last American supply line to the Reds. Therefore he considered Japan a "stumbling block" between California and Siberia. Frankfurter argued for an American war of aggression against Japan. He wrote: "In Japan we have a 'dagger in the back' type of enemy waiting and anxious only for the place and moment when it can sink that dagger to the best advantage. In this show-down war, reasons multiply for annihilating this kind of enemy."t9 Annihilating a whole nation is genocide. Remember Hitler's prophesies regarding Japan and about whom her annihilation would serve best. If the standards applied to the defeated Axis leaders at Nuremberg and Tokyo had been applied to Frankfurter, I doubt if he would have escaped death by hanging."
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:31
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What a pathetic thread!
Concidering that Red Army destroyed 3/4 of Hitler's army (including Italians, Romanians, Hungarians, Finns, Slovaks, Czehs, Spainish, French, Dutch, Norwegians, Latvians, Estonians, guess I forgot sombody),
it's pretty obvious that it was the biggest mistake for the Axis - to attack the USSR.
F*ck the AXIS.
 Attachment: ussr.gif
This has been downloaded 63 time(s).
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
What a pathetic thread!
Concidering that Red Army destroyed 3/4 of Hitler's army (including Italians, Romanians, Hungarians, Finns, Slovaks, Czehs, Spainish, French, Dutch, Norwegians, Latvians, Estonians, guess I forgot sombody),
it's pretty obvious that it was the biggest mistake for the Axis - to attack the USSR.
F*ck the AXIS. |
Yes, but destroying the SU was virtually the raison d'etre of the Nazi party. The rest of the war was merely a prelude to this main event.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
The linked article http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p-41_Braun.html by German diplomat Karl Otto Braun is a must read for people truly interested in this topic. It details the diplomatic maneuvering that lead to Japan, WWI allies of Great Britain, joining the axis and why Japan eventually attacked the US. Among the points made, I found the following intriquing:
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No, the main reason that Japan changed it's alliance was the opposition of wesdtern leaders, particularily FDR, to Japan's war against China. Japan had nothing to gain from joining the line up against Germany, since Japan had already taken Germany's Asian possessions. The US, France and Britain OTOH were positioned to thwart Japan's ambitions, were not offering to be helpful to Japan's cause in exchange for an alliance, and had tempting choice tidbits of territory which could be taken under the right circumstances. The US embargo of raw materials was the straw that broke the camel's back. The witholding of American scrap metal and oil promised to be as damaging to the Japanese war effort as an outright declaration of war.
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