10-04-2005 23:34									#151
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Maybe for Americans, who have a much more fluid idea of nationalism. But the Chinese still spoke Chinese, considered themselves Chinese and were considered by others to be Chinese.

Not the ones that have formed communities in many Canadian cities, and some American ones from what I've read.

They are Vietnamese.

	11-04-2005 01:52									#152
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I wonder when Ned's gonna get it through his head that this didn't happen.

Che, POW's who were there and saw it happen remain liars, then, just as Jane has repeatedly said, and as all good commies continue to say about anyone who challenges their self-assumed, godlike virtue.

	11-04-2005 07:18									#153
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither They fled after the fall of Saigon, but nice try anyway.

Actually no.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither They kept trying to get out for a long while. Then policies in Western nations changed from open doors to ambivalence if not hostility.

That's because they weren't getting persecuted as asserted.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Even then, there are still people trying to get out, but they are using normal immigration.

People leave various countries for others all the time.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It's China that now has people desperate enough to flee that they could be called boat people.

Com'on, tell me more about these "boat people." I am listening.

	11-04-2005 07:29									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Com'on, tell me more about these "boat people." I am listening.

Well [ahem], when I was in Shanghai last year, one woman asked me to take her to America so she could be my "girlfriend."

	11-04-2005 07:39									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Com'on, tell me more about these "boat people." I am listening.

http://www.rcmp.ca/crimint/marim_e.html

quote: Maritime Smuggling of Illegal Migrants CIB Report — September 1999 Criminal Intelligence Directorate Royal Canadian Mounted Police Background Maritime smuggling is not a new phenomenon, however, this year has been marked with an increase of maritime smuggling in many countries around the world including Canada, the United States and Australia. Canadian Situation The most recent incidents of marine arrivals off the British Columbia coast are not the first illegal migrants that Canada received from PRC by the sea. Since July 20, 1999, Canadian authorities have intercepted four ships which were attempting to smuggle 617 Chinese illegal migrants from the Fujian province into this country through British Columbia. There are also indications that a ship spotted and believed to have sunk in early July 1999 had succeeded in off-loading illegal migrants on the west coast. On July 20, 1999 a first vessel was intercepted off Nootka Sound, Vancouver Islands with 123 illegal migrants onboard. Currently 37 are in custody and 86 have been released. Out of those 86, CIC had to issue Canadian-wide arrest warrants for 37 who failed to appear for refugee claim appointments. On August 11, 1999 a second ship was intercepted off Kunghit Island with 131 illegal migrants onboard. Currently 34 children in the care of the Ministry of Children and Families. The ship's nine South Korean crewmembers have been charged under section 94.4 of Immigration Act for off-loading at sea. On August 31, 1999 the third ship was intercepted off Esperanza Inlet, Vancouver Island with 190 illegal migrants on board. 182 people are being held at CFB Esquimalt on Vancouver Island and another eight at the Vancouver Island Regional Correctional Centre. On September 9, 1999 a fourth ship was intercepted 30 kilometres off the coast of British Columbia. This ship contained 163 illegal migrants from the PRC. In contrast to a fishing vessel used in the previous operations, this smuggling operation used a freighter. Who Is Involved? Organized crime groups have provided various services ranging from safehouses to smuggling migrants to the US. Criminal organizations have also been known to involve illegal migrants in their illicit enterprises, as drug couriers or prostitutes for example. Ships and Sea Routing The ships which are used in maritime smuggling are usually former fishing vessels, although freighters and containers have also been used. These ships are readily available throughout Asia (eg. Taiwan, Japan, Philippines) and usually have no markings such as flags, numbers, a name or home port markings. Cooperation Between Canada and the PRC on the Issue of Maritime Smuggling Following the summer's events, the PRC has agreed to work with Canadian authorities to crack down on human smuggling syndicates that have been sending boatloads of illegal migrants to British Columbia's shores. This cooperation will occur under a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) aimed at battling organized crime that was signed between the two countries in April 1999. This MOU will allow Canadian investigators to travel to the Fujian province to collaborate with Chinese authorities to track down the leaders of the syndicates which are involved in the smuggling operations. Implications for Canada Even if the boat is intercepted at sea by Canadian authorities or illegal migrants are arrested on Canadian shore, they can still make refugee claims and eventually obtain refugee status. Clearly, Canadian interceptions at sea do not deter smuggling organizations. They only slow down smuggling operations, at no significant cost to organizers. The spectacular arrival of so many illegal migrants in such a short period of time has more than an immediate impact on the credibility and integrity of Canadian immigration policies. Travel debts contracted by illegal migrants often make them dependent on criminal organizations in Canada. They create situations in which illegal migrants are drawn into criminal activity within this country. It is believed that many of the illegal migrants who arrived in Canada by ship this summer actually had the United States as their final destination. In this respect, the arrival of illegal migrants to British Columbia is not only a Canadian problem. It is a North American problem which will have an impact on relations between Canada and the United States. Recent events suggest that illegal migrant smugglers are getting bolder. Arrivals from different staging points are possible with migrants coming from other countries in Asia and Africa.

People must be really pleased with where they live if they are willing to be crammed into a cargo container and shipped to North America.

	11-04-2005 07:46									#156
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communism sucks, just watch people vote with their feet...that is if they are allowed to leave...

	11-04-2005 08:34									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Well [ahem], when I was in Shanghai last year, one woman asked me to take her to America so she could be my "girlfriend."

Was she beautiful?

	11-04-2005 08:35									#158
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither People must be really pleased with where they live if they are willing to be crammed into a cargo container and shipped to North America.

I am sure they are, considering the number of people leaving are extremely small.

Should I remind you that there are 1.3 billion people in China?

	11-04-2005 08:39									#159
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People having themselves shipped out as sea cargo can be understood if only there are enough people? What, is this a rat like syndrome?

	11-04-2005 13:24									#160
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Again, you're blaming the North for what turned out to mainly be an unjustified fear They were not responsible for the majority of civilian deaths in that conflict. They weren't a genocidal regime (like, say, the Khmer Rouge, or Mao's or Stalin's). The fact that a shitload of people freaked out and decided to go grab free citizenship in the US can't be blamed on them.

No, the vast majority of the exodus occurred after the North won the war. In the case of the ethnic Chinese there is considerable evidence of a purposeful effort on the part of the Communist government to both allow and "encourage" (through ill-treatment and discrimination) people to sell all of their property (at fire sale prices) in order to purchase passage on a leaky boat to who knows where. Part of the price included bribes to the correct officials of course, lest the coastal patrol take the overloaded refugee boat as a pirate or a smuggler.

	11-04-2005 13:31									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger People trying to run away from a war, what a shocking revelation.

Well they sure as hell ran like hell from the communists, and for good reason. Experience of the Viet Cong didn't exactly inspire confidence, though thankfully the VC was all but eliminated by 1970 or so. The NVA was a lot more disciplined, but the average civilian had no contact with them until 1975.

Of course the vast majority of the international exodus occurred after the communists were firmly in power. I know a number of people who fled Vietnam in the late 1970s, and they fled because it was made clear to them that there was no future in Vietnam for them. So clear that they took considerable risks to flee.

	11-04-2005 13:35									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Stange that there aren't any more boat people these days, while the "one-party dictatorship" is still firmly in place. Something doesn't add up.

Yea, the purge of ethnic Chinese and former RVN elements has been completed, and as it's considered bad form to force people to walk the plank these days the communists have mellowed a bit. Of course they couldn't hold a candle to the PRC's proxies in Cambodia the Khmer Rouge in terms of brutality.

Btw, the first boat people I ever saw in my life were from the PRC. There were many thousands of them in hong Kong.

	11-04-2005 17:38									#163
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Oh, and a little more on topic, Hanoi Jane is simply an idiot with a weak sense of self who mostly goes along with what her boyfriend / husband tells her. I mean, what sane and self-respecting person would marry both Tom Hadyn and The Mouth of the South. Both of them are perpetual self-aggrandizers, and the only people who can stand to be with them are perpetual enablers like Fonda.

	21-04-2005 07:00									#164
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man arrested for spitting on Jane Fonda.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050420/D89JEL2O0.html

	21-04-2005 07:11									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident man arrested for spitting on Jane Fonda. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050420/D89JEL2O0.html

I would not have done that. I do not like her, so I would just stay home. If I ever encounter her in public, I will just look for second and then shake my head no, and move on. She is not worth going to jail over.

	21-04-2005 07:14									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph She is not worth going to jail over.

So you'd do it if you could get away with it?

	21-04-2005 07:15									#167
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I certainly would not wait in line 90 minutes just to spit on her.

	21-04-2005 07:39									#168
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd So you'd do it if you could get away with it?

No, out of respect for myself.

	21-04-2005 07:58									#169
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Reading through this thread is somewhat disturbing to say the least.

What's up with this sudden resurgence in Vietnam revisionism and trying to justify a war long over? It was a huge blundering mistake to get involved yet there still seems to be a portion of the American population who view that EVERY single war/conflict America is involved in is always justified.

	21-04-2005 08:15									#170
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we couldn't let communism expand unchecked.

while I don't entirely agree with that philosophy, I can understand the reasoning.

	21-04-2005 08:26									#171
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I for one can't understand the reasoning.

Why should we have bothered helping keep commujism from spreading around the world? Who cares? As long as it doesn’t affect the US it’s not a problem. I don’t give a toss if some little pissant nation suffers a revolution or uprising. Why do people feel the need to get involved in all of these 3rd world crap holes and try and help spread democracy or some other noble bullcrap? It’s not worth the time, energy, and cost of human lives. Let the world sort itself out.

	21-04-2005 08:32									#172
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so take it you don't care about the millions of africans killed in Rwanda in the 90's? They can sort their own problems out.

	21-04-2005 08:44									#173
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Not really. Perhaps if I knew and Rwandans personally or had family over there I would but I don't.

This kind of stuff has been happening for centuries, its human nature. Just let it ride itself out, maybe they'll learn from their mistakes.

Edit: Also, wouldn't it be unfair to help Rwanda and say... not Sudan, Zimbabwe, etc. We could never help everybody who needed and as soon as we leave a region the same old ethnic/religious tensions would rise again. It’s pointless. These nations must learn from their own mistakes and improve themselves.

	21-04-2005 11:17									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Riesstiu IV I for one can't understand the reasoning. Why should we have bothered helping keep commujism from spreading around the world? Who cares?

The United States, Japan, Switzerland, Norway, South Korea, The United Kingdom, Sweden, Thailand, Austrailia, Canada, The Netherlands, Portugal, South Africa, West Germany, Taiwan, Italy, Turkey, Ireland, New Zealand, Denmark, Spain, Greece, India, Belgium...

A lot of people in those places and a few more cared about the spread of communism. It was the thing to do. Call it a fad if you wish.

	22-04-2005 00:22									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Riesstiu IV Not really. Perhaps if I knew and Rwandans personally or had family over there I would but I don't. This kind of stuff has been happening for centuries, its human nature. Just let it ride itself out, maybe they'll learn from their mistakes. Edit: Also, wouldn't it be unfair to help Rwanda and say... not Sudan, Zimbabwe, etc. We could never help everybody who needed and as soon as we leave a region the same old ethnic/religious tensions would rise again. It’s pointless. These nations must learn from their own mistakes and improve themselves.

The argument Ike and Kennedy made was that we had to stop a communism in Vietnam because the other nations in the area would fall like dominoes. The argument that Jane Fonda and others made was that the domino theory was nonsense because Ho Chi Minh, while being a communist, was primarily a nationalist and had only interest in "liberating" Vietnam from foreign influence and in reuniting the country.

In the final analysis, I think the Jane Fondas of the world may have the better argument about Ho Chi Minh; but I still would have given South Vietnam all the financial and military aid is needed to fend off the Communists themselves. I would not have committed US troops. But this is pure hindsight, because at the time everybody in power believed in the domino theory.

	22-04-2005 01:49									#176
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At least she's admitted her mistake, which is more than Kerry has done.

	22-04-2005 03:39									#177
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Everyone likes to forget, we were the badguys in that war. Jane was one of the good guys! Too bad she's lost the courage of her previous convictions.

There were no good guys. Three countries playing geopolitics, a few pseudocountries with psychotic commie murdering thugs or corrupt despotic murdering thugs fighting it out for power, some minor countries who were lackeys of the three biggies, and a shitload of peasants on all sides of the various borders who just wished the whole thing would go away, along with all the so-called leaders.

	22-04-2005 03:43									#178
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat There were no good guys. Three countries playing geopolitics, a few pseudocountries with psychotic commie murdering thugs or corrupt despotic murdering thugs fighting it out for power, some minor countries who were lackeys of the three biggies, and a shitload of peasants on all sides of the various borders who just wished the whole thing would go away, along with all the so-called leaders.

All true. But again, this is hindsight.

	22-04-2005 03:46									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Barinthus Really, chegitz? Perhaps if Bush Sr let the military do their job, we wouldn't had that Iraq invasion in the first place since Saddam would have been already took care of back then.

That's the opposite, the Pentagon DOESN'T want to be occupying and annexing countries. It just doesn't fit their doctrine.

	22-04-2005 03:48									#180
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The United States, Japan, Switzerland, Norway, South Korea, The United Kingdom, Sweden, Thailand, Austrailia, Canada, The Netherlands, Portugal, South Africa, West Germany, Taiwan, Italy, Turkey, Ireland, New Zealand, Denmark, Spain, Greece, India, Belgium... A lot of people in those places and a few more cared about the spread of communism. It was the thing to do. Call it a fad if you wish.

I personally think the rise, spread, start of communism/socialism is mainly due to the basics of Capitalism that don't give a **** about the common man. If Capitalism was left unchecked, the common man in the so-called free countries would be worse off. So you can thank the cold war for your high standard of living. Furthermore, if Capitalism was as superior as advertised you would not have so many FORMER colonies and subjugated countries/peoples would not have switched to it. They did not switch to it from a desire to be EVIL. It was because Capitalism's major flaw and selling point is that it's benefits the owners and rich and screws the workers and consumers as much as possible.