03-04-2005 09:27									#91
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I don't want any laws that tell people they can't say what they want. Jane had every constitutional right to think and say what she wanted, as revolting as it may have been.

	03-04-2005 09:28									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler At the time, "Hanoi Jane" posed for the infamous shot, I was very anti-war. But I -- and everyone I knew -- were shocked because she was so far over the line. Legally, she wasn't a traitor because there was no declared war and thus no "enemy" to give aid and comfort to. (Tell that to the grunts who were being shot at. ) We really need some crime like "treason lite" or "second degree treason" or something to seep up people like her and like Oliver North (who purposely set out to subvert the Constitution from the basement of the White House). "Hanoi Jane" is sorry? That's good, I guess. It's better than being not sorry.

Oliver North was a Lt. Col in the Marine Corp, and if you think for a momment that he could sell missile without approval from someone higher, then you don't understand Chain of Command. He took orders from a Vice Adm. (3 stars).

	03-04-2005 09:31									#93
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If Oliver North was guilty of a crime (and I think he clearly was), then yeah, he was just a small part of the team that participated in the crime. Resposibility for that went all the way to Reagan.

	03-04-2005 09:56									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov If Oliver North was guilty of a crime (and I think he clearly was), then yeah, he was just a small part of the team that participated in the crime. Resposibility for that went all the way to Reagan.

Ollie North did two things wrong. he lied. He participated in disobeying an order from Congress. He should be punished for those. I have no problem with the policy issue of fighting communists though. I understand the candy-assed fellow traveleller pinko Democrat types (many of whom go around here actually emblazoned with mottoes like Communist party of Apolyton) feel different.

	03-04-2005 09:59									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Which "democrats" are associating with her? Che isn't a democrat, after all.

Don't be a weasel. You guys bed down together enough. I think the people running around with Communist flags and pictures of Stalin are sick. And you liberal Democrats make common cause with these candy-ass "Che-cult" types all the time. Makes me sick. Why not run around with swasticas.

	03-04-2005 10:00									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Uh huh. And the war helped them how, exactly?

Well they were a lot better off before than after. Maybe you want to tell me how the Cambodians were better off after the Khmer Rouge communists took over also.

	03-04-2005 10:03									#97
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How many millions of people in SV were getting on boats trying to escape before the NVA came in in 1975? How many women went through 100-odd rapes by Indonesian pirates. You ever pick any of them up, *******? My USNA roommate's ship did. They really ****ing existed. Didn't happen before. Did after. Maybe you should go live in some regime like that. Have them rape your sisters and kill your children. Then you jack off with your Civ crap.

	03-04-2005 10:38									#98
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Don't be a weasel. You guys bed down together enough. I think the people running around with Communist flags and pictures of Stalin are sick. And you liberal Democrats make common cause with these candy-ass "Che-cult" types all the time. Makes me sick. Why not run around with swasticas.

Swastikas are reserved for genocidal, fascist thugs like you Republicans.

	03-04-2005 10:41									#99
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Nice to see GP's political discussion style remains as enlightened as ever...

	03-04-2005 10:43									#100
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Nice to see GP's political discussion style remains as enlightened as ever...

I figure he's bored enough that it won't hurt to give him a nibble on his troll.

Ugh, that sounds bad...

	03-04-2005 10:44									#101
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Dude, you're blaming the North for something Indonesian pirates did?

Nice.

	03-04-2005 10:50									#102
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Maybe there's a reason 1,000,000 Vietnamese fled on flimsy boats after the fall of the South.

	03-04-2005 10:57									#103
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Again, you're blaming the North for what turned out to mainly be an unjustified fear

They were not responsible for the majority of civilian deaths in that conflict. They weren't a genocidal regime (like, say, the Khmer Rouge, or Mao's or Stalin's). The fact that a shitload of people freaked out and decided to go grab free citizenship in the US can't be blamed on them.

	03-04-2005 11:06									#104
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So what kept them fighting against the Chinese for independence for four hundred years? Did they think the Chinese would be beaten in the living room? They had been fighting for thirty years against the Japanese, French, and the United States. What makes you think they were going to give up if we invaded the North and started a war with the PRC and the USSR?

I don't.

I think they would have given up eventually if the American media and popular opinion had not shown that you lot could be beat just like the French were.

I don't think they would have endlessly sacrificed the people and the future of the North to keep shooting in the South with no result and no prospect of one.

Not even the IRA kept up an insane policy when confronted with resolve for long enough.

The NV won because they made support for SV such a losing proposition politically in the US that when they broke the treaty your leaders were too chicken-**** to even give fuel and ammo to the SV.

In a word you got your asses thrashed, but not militarily. You got your asses thrashed psychologically. Hanoi Jane was part of that thrashing.

	03-04-2005 11:22									#105
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Again, you're blaming the North for what turned out to mainly be an unjustified fear They were not responsible for the majority of civilian deaths in that conflict. They weren't a genocidal regime (like, say, the Khmer Rouge, or Mao's or Stalin's). The fact that a shitload of people freaked out and decided to go grab free citizenship in the US can't be blamed on them.

Yeah, I suppose that everyone should have been happy to live under a one-party dictatorship with religious and political persecution.

Isn't it funny that a million people thought that the possibility of drowning was preferable?

	03-04-2005 11:57									#106
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yeah, I suppose that everyone should have been happy to live under a one-party dictatorship with religious and political persecution. Isn't it funny that a million people thought that the possibility of drowning was preferable?

There was a lot of fear of communists at that time, and a lot of people were afraid (my aunt actually left at almost the end of the conflict). The fear was slightl justified, as they weren't at all sure what the North Vietnamese would institute as national policy. However, a lot of the fear was due to US/South Vietnamese propaganda.

But an interesting thought experiment is to imagine what would happen if the impossible happened, and we won the war. If you assume that the North is beaten significantly enough so that they concede defeat, how many of them would have fled. We only get to look at it one way, but I argue that in the face of takerover by a right-wing dictatorship like the South, many would flee, and the rest would stay and fight.

	03-04-2005 12:15									#107
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Again, you're blaming the North for what turned out to mainly be an unjustified fear

Why don't we tell that to the Hmong?

	03-04-2005 12:22									#108
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yeah, I suppose that everyone should have been happy to live under a one-party dictatorship with religious and political persecution.

Why not? They'd been under one for the last 25 years...

	03-04-2005 12:48									#109
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Evidently it wasn't the repression they were used to.

	03-04-2005 12:55									#110
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Exactly...

	03-04-2005 13:01									#111
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Exactly what?

quote: The fact that a shitload of people freaked out and decided to go grab free citizenship in the US can't be blamed on them.

They aren't responsible for the bad things they themselves did that drove a million people to take to the sea?

Because of what? The bad guys made them be badder?

Did the bad guys make them wipe out indigenous tribes after the Yanks left?

	03-04-2005 13:06									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral There was a lot of fear of communists at that time, and a lot of people were afraid (my aunt actually left at almost the end of the conflict). The fear was slightl justified, as they weren't at all sure what the North Vietnamese would institute as national policy. However, a lot of the fear was due to US/South Vietnamese propaganda. But an interesting thought experiment is to imagine what would happen if the impossible happened, and we won the war. If you assume that the North is beaten significantly enough so that they concede defeat, how many of them would have fled. We only get to look at it one way, but I argue that in the face of takerover by a right-wing dictatorship like the South, many would flee, and the rest would stay and fight.

Most of the boat people left after the NV were firmly in charge. They weren't afraid of what might be, they ran from what was.

Nobody from the North would have had to flee anywhere. The Yanks weren't there to turn back the disease, but to stop it from spreading.

Curious. Is your family Vietnamese?

	03-04-2005 13:12									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Uh huh. And the war helped them how, exactly?

they live in the U.S. That's alot of help.

	03-04-2005 13:27									#114
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From tco's link.

quote: These guns were used to shoot down American airplanes and to kill American pilots and aircrew.

And those American airplanes were dropping bombs on Vietnamese civilians.Too bad, so sad.

nye, most of the people who fled Vietname were not Vietnamese. There were ethnic Chinese. Vietnam was engaging in ethnic cleansing. I'm not justifying it, but it's a bit different than saying that things got so bad people we're jumping over each other to get out. Still a bad thing, but it's a different bad thing.

We would never have beaten the Vietnamese. If we hadn't left, we'd still be fighting them today. In the Philippines, the NCA is decended from the group of people that were fighting us 100 years ago. The Communists would have gone into the hills and the jungles and kept fighting, assuming that Chinese didn't invade and WWIII didn't end the world. And the Chinese recently acknowledged they fully intended to attack us if we invaded the North.

The only way we could have won was by not going in in the first place.

	03-04-2005 13:34									#115
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara From tco's link. quote: These guns were used to shoot down American airplanes and to kill American pilots and aircrew. And those American airplanes were dropping bombs on Vietnamese civilians.Too bad, so sad. nye, most of the people who fled Vietname were not Vietnamese. There were ethnic Chinese. Vietnam was engaging in ethnic cleansing. I'm not justifying it, but it's a bit different than saying that things got so bad people we're jumping over each other to get out. Still a bad thing, but it's a different bad thing. We would never have beaten the Vietnamese. If we hadn't left, we'd still be fighting them today. In the Philippines, the NCA is decended from the group of people that were fighting us 100 years ago. The Communists would have gone into the hills and the jungles and kept fighting, assuming that Chinese didn't invade and WWIII didn't end the world. And the Chinese recently acknowledged they fully intended to attack us if we invaded the North. The only way we could have won was by not going in in the first place.

ethnic chinese

how do you explain all the vietnamese people living in Los Angeles?

	03-04-2005 13:47									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident ethnic chinese

The ethnic Vietnamese in the U.S. left when we left or just before the fall. Most of the boat people were ethnic Chinese, however. You know someone can be Chinese and from Vietnam, right? China ruled Vietnam for over four centuries.

	03-04-2005 14:51									#117
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You mean like the boat people who settled in Edmonton, who speak Vietnamese, eat Vietnamese and are as far as I can tell, were Vietnamese?

But maybe you'll have a source for this claim that most of the boat people were actually Chinese.

BTW, why would ethnic Chinese flee?

	03-04-2005 14:53									#118
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The real question is why vietnamese people like to gamble so much.

They're poker-playing fiends.

	03-04-2005 16:06									#119
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Don't be a weasel. You guys bed down together enough. I think the people running around with Communist flags and pictures of Stalin are sick. And you liberal Democrats make common cause with these candy-ass "Che-cult" types all the time. Makes me sick. Why not run around with swasticas.

And you make me sick. Who ****ing cares?

quote: nye BTW, why would ethnic Chinese flee?

At a guess, the ethnic cleansing che mentioned.

	03-04-2005 16:14									#120
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I'm not sure Che has a firm grasp on his own willy, let alone reality. That's why I didn't jump on his ethnic cleansing reference.

There was ethnic cleasnsing, to be sure. However, I'm not sure ethnic Chinese make up the bulk of the boat people.