03-04-2005 02:12									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen They wouldn't be flooding your country with drugs if you ****ing cokeheads didn't snort it.

They would still be flooding the country anyways because the Mexican government pushes their own citizens to invade our own country. It's about time we put our military on the border with Mexico not in Iraq.

	03-04-2005 02:18									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Riesstiu IV They would still be flooding the country anyways because the Mexican government pushes their own citizens to invade our own country.

Along with american buisnesses...

	03-04-2005 03:24									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Riesstiu IV They would still be flooding the country anyways because the Mexican government pushes their own citizens to invade our own country. It's about time we put our military on the border with Mexico not in Iraq.

In such case your military should be invading Wal-Mart and all the thousands of other establishments which hire them illegally. Your government could greatly reduce the migration if it really wanted to, but it doesn't since they're not as stupid as you as not realize the net benefit such migration - despite its costs.

	03-04-2005 10:21									#64
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Absolute identification of people, and comparison with specific files without potential errors, would certainly introduce a great complexity in the life of terrorists and criminals.

A lot of these measures just cause inconvenience to travellers. They don't stop terrorists.

But the government gets to be seen as "doing something". A lot of so-called war on terror is like that.

	03-04-2005 10:24									#65
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You are very right AH.

	03-04-2005 11:01									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Well I can say that I was looking at a visit to the US at some point soon, especially with the favourable £/$ exchange rate. But if I ever need a visa to do so, I will forego the idea. And if a lot of people in Europe do this, it will seriously hurt your tourist industry...

Again, that's why it's a bad bluff: the US is simply never going to require tourist visas from visa waiver countries like those in the EU, because we can't afford to: we can't afford the loss of tourism, and we can't afford to hire the extra personnel to ajudicate visas.

What the US wants is to feel assured that everyone who enters its borders has been through some kind of rigorous screening process. In countries without trustworthy governments and citizens, we do this by putting those countries' citizens through a rigorous screening process (much-improved since 9/11), then issuing them a secure travel document (also much-improved since 9/11). In countries with trustworthy governments, we trust them to make sure they're not giving passports to the wrong people. We want to keep trusting the countries we trust; biometric passports will help us do that. It's not an unreasonable request, and it's the direction first-world countries are headed in anyway.

So what's all the fuss about? Again, nothing more than heavy-handed GOP "diplomacy." There were a huge number of ways for the Bush administration and the GOP-controlled Congress to secure EU compliance on this. Typically, they've chosen the least productive, most stupid and offensive strategem they could think of: an ultimatum, and one they won't even follow through on. They're idiots, but in this case at least they're harmless idiots.

	03-04-2005 11:25									#67
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You make it sound as if they aren't dragging their feet, and all we would have to do is ask nicely before they spring to action to fulfill our wishes.

	03-04-2005 11:32									#68
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quote: Originally posted by DanS You make it sound as if they aren't dragging their feet, Rufus.

Given what bastards we're being about this, I wouldn't blame them. But you know what? I don't think they're dragging their feet. We're the richest country in the world, we're the ones who got hit by 9/11, we issue far, far fewer passports per citizen than do EU countries, and WE don't have biometric passports yet. This is a much bigger logistical problem for the EU than it is for us, and yet we've given them less time to comply than we gave ourselves. That's ridiculous -- and, again, typical of the bullying that passes in this administration for diplomacy.

	03-04-2005 11:34									#69
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We can control our borders as we choose.

	03-04-2005 11:35									#70
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OK, if they aren't dragging their feet, where does the process stand right now?

	03-04-2005 11:36									#71
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One of the fundamental concepts of security is to eliminate simple vulnerabilities first. It can have an amazing effect. So sure, MISSION IMPOSSIBLE can still get into the country. But that does not mean that simple measures don't still enhance security in the end.

	03-04-2005 11:37									#72
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quote: Originally posted by DanS OK, if they aren't dragging their feet, where does the process stand right now?

Possibly continual extensions while the EU does nothing.

	03-04-2005 11:38									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Possibly continual extensions while the EU does nothing.

So much for our friends who said they would do anything to help us. We are on our own to help ourselves. Let them get the ****ing visas.

	03-04-2005 12:02									#74
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Possibly continual extensions while the EU does nothing.

Not exactly. The problem is that the US imagined the biometric passport issue to be essentially bilateral: we would work with individual countries to make sure our standards and their standards worked together. But teh problem is that EU countries need to coordinate technology, databases, etc. not only with the US but with each other; they're suddenly in the position of having to develop and implement a tech rollout across national borders that wasn't even under discussion a few years back.

Maybe an analogy will help. Right now, there's some discussion of Congress requiring US States to implement biometric driver's licenses and give the Feds access to the state databases. This will almost certainly happen. But imagine if, instead of requiring each state to do this, Congress required all the states to come up with a single license that not only coordinated each state with the Feds but coordinated all states with each other. How long do you think it would take to roll out those licenses?

That being said, we should expect that non-EU visa waiver countries (Japan, Canada, Singapore) will meet the deadline, or at least get close.

	03-04-2005 12:03									#75
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We're developing a biometric passport. TCO and Dan are right when they say there is no harm in improving security and plugging the holes.

My main beef is a lot of the effort is misdirected into a kind of catch all, scatter gun approach, hotlines and alert levels and other rubbish feel good security measures, when the real failures were in sophisticated security and intelligence and that is where the resources should go imo.

A small example: I'm having my 5 year security clearance review. I've had to provide about 3 times as much information since 9/11. That's at least 3 times as much resources spent checking me out. What for? I think those resources could be better spent elsewhere if we're really serious about catching terrorists and stopping incidents.

	03-04-2005 12:09									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Not exactly.... That being said, we should expect that non-EU visa waiver countries (Japan, Canada, Singapore) will meet the deadline, or at least get close.

That sounds exactly like what is happening and will continue to happen in light of the fact that according to you only the EU visa waiver countries seem incapable of meeting the deadline or even coming close.

	03-04-2005 12:23									#77
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That sounds exactly like what is happening and will continue to happen in light of the fact that according to you only the EU visa waiver countries seem incapable of meeting the deadline or even coming close.

Exactly. The problem here, again, is that intra-EU coordination of hardware, software, and existing national databases has added a dimension of difficulty to this process that non-EU countries don't have to face, and that quite probably the US Congress (bright and tech-savvy as we all know they are) didn't foresee when they set the deadline.

But the EU still will adopt them, eventually.

And, meanwhile, we'll let them take their time, not because we're nice but because we were never serious about requiring visas to begin with. That was the geopolitical equivalent of threatening to hold our breath until we turned blue.

	03-04-2005 12:24									#78
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Rufus: Where does the process stand now? Are they giving us what seem like pretty firm timeframes?

	03-04-2005 12:26									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse We're developing a biometric passport. TCO and Dan are right when they say there is no harm in improving security and plugging the holes. My main beef is a lot of the effort is misdirected into a kind of catch all, scatter gun approach, hotlines and alert levels and other rubbish feel good security measures, when the real failures were in sophisticated security and intelligence and that is where the resources should go imo. A small example: I'm having my 5 year security clearance review. I've had to provide about 3 times as much information since 9/11. That's at least 3 times as much resources spent checking me out. What for? I think those resources could be better spent elsewhere if we're really serious about catching terrorists and stopping incidents.

	03-04-2005 12:41									#80
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Rufus: Where does the process stand now? Are they giving us what seem like pretty firm timeframes?

Right now they're moving along. As I understand it, each EU country is responsible for their own production of a common EU passport (which seems goofy to me, but whatever). As a result, some EU countries will actually be meeting the October 26 deadline: Germany, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Belgium and either the Netherlands or Luxembourg (can't remember which). Not surprisingly, those are the richest and best-organized countries in the EU (I'm leaving out the UK because they're not part of the EU passport agreement, IIRC).

So that leaves the EU's poor relation contries -- Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland, etc. -- who won't meet the deadline. The EU has asked for a 10-month extension, until August 2006, to bring the rest of those countries into compliance.

One thing I don't know is whether EU countries who are not visa waiver countries -- Greece, for example, as well as most of the recent admissions -- are required to meet this deadline.

	03-04-2005 13:56									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse We're developing a biometric passport. TCO and Dan are right when they say there is no harm in improving security and plugging the holes. My main beef is a lot of the effort is misdirected into a kind of catch all, scatter gun approach, hotlines and alert levels and other rubbish feel good security measures, when the real failures were in sophisticated security and intelligence and that is where the resources should go imo. A small example: I'm having my 5 year security clearance review. I've had to provide about 3 times as much information since 9/11. That's at least 3 times as much resources spent checking me out. What for? I think those resources could be better spent elsewhere if we're really serious about catching terrorists and stopping incidents.

Yes. There is lots of screwed up stuff, still. For instance I bet I can still rip tits in the CIA and find a bunch of quota queens and very few good linguists.

	03-04-2005 13:59									#82
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good linguists are invaluable, you need good human assets too

	03-04-2005 14:01									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse good linguists are invaluable, you need good human assets too

Well since we didn't even do a good job during the Cold War, why expect that we will do so now?

	03-04-2005 14:07									#84
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One thing I notice is these groups seem quite easy to infiltrate, clearly not as easy as before 9/11 but still quite open to recruitment, and therefore penetration.

The Australians linked to Al Qaeda were all cleanskins, some met OBL himself, it didn't seem that hard to me to get in or to get to him. Much harder now but this is a standard intelligence operation which professionals should be able to pull off.

	03-04-2005 14:08									#85
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quote: Originally posted by TCO So much for our friends who said they would do anything to help us. We are on our own to help ourselves. Let them get the ****ing visas.

They ARE helping you. Most european nations are actively involved with US agencies in avoiding terrorist infiltrations since those same terrorits can strike the europeans also.

That you dumbasses don't recognize this effort and just spout idiotic nonsense about them not collaborating goes to show how little you know about the issue and how you're just basing your possition on your hatred of everything european.

	03-04-2005 14:24									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse One thing I notice is these groups seem quite easy to infiltrate, clearly not as easy as before 9/11 but still quite open to recruitment, and therefore penetration. The Australians linked to Al Qaeda were all cleanskins, some met OBL himself, it didn't seem that hard to me to get in or to get to him. Much harder now but this is a standard intelligence operation which professionals should be able to pull off.

I think we are poor in tradecraft (and linguistics is just an example of that). You have to have people who really care about their job and create an ethic that this is much more than a government posting. CIA is full of middle manager buttkiss types. It is antithesis of Naval Reactors or SEAL TEAM organizations or whatever.

	03-04-2005 14:27									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen They ARE helping you. Most european nations are actively involved with US agencies in avoiding terrorist infiltrations since those same terrorits can strike the europeans also. That you dumbasses don't recognize this effort and just spout idiotic nonsense about them not collaborating goes to show how little you know about the issue and how you're just basing your possition on your hatred of everything european.

Oh...chill. I don't hate them. I don't really expect that much from them either. I deal with people at work all the time (well on last Geneva trip) who blather on about how rough it is to travel to US. They haven't seen rough.

	03-04-2005 14:29									#88
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quote: Originally posted by TCO I think we are poor in tradecraft (and linguistics is just an example of that). You have to have people who really care about their job and create an ethic that this is much more than a government posting. CIA is full of middle manager buttkiss types. It is antithesis of Naval Reactors or SEAL TEAM organizations or whatever.

Bottom line is that we suck.

We need to get a top notch spy network the way the East Germans and Russians did it.

A couple of Russian agent hoes sleep with the Marines and get right in the front door of the embassy.

	03-04-2005 14:45									#89
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Oh...chill. I don't hate them. I don't really expect that much from them either. I deal with people at work all the time (well on last Geneva trip) who blather on about how rough it is to travel to US. They haven't seen rough.

That's the point. You can't expect everyone to comply with your country's wishes. You want to set up visas for all countries without biometric passports so be it, every country has the right to do what they wish. Just don't act like whiny *****es when those same countries retaliate by forcing you to get a visa. Then maybe your next Geneva trip will not be so smooth.

	03-04-2005 14:45									#90
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The passport with optical reading is avaible in France since oct 1st 2003.