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Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Brent
If people want 1) 3) and 4), why call it the same religion? Married Priests however, is how it is supposed to be in my belief.
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Its not really about where you stand on one issue or another, its really about bums on seats. What I mean is the whole edifice of the church, the Vatican, the cathedrals, the schools, the hospitals, the seminaries, the orphanages, you name it, is supported at a grassroots level by parishioners who go to mass every week and pay their tithes. If the parishioners disappear the church is in big, big trouble. This applies to the Third World as well because it is money from the wealthy parts of the world that pay for the missionary work and the services in those parts of the world.
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If you don't want to follow the teachings of said church, why not leave it? |
Because that is the chaos that we call protestantism 
The catholic church changes with the times, contrary to the widely held view of outsiders, and some insiders. There is a great waiting going on, even amongst the lapsed catholics. Lets not forget the church's current teachings on divorce and remarriage alone have separated literally hundreds of millions from the church in Europe and North America.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:35
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quote:
They lost a 100,000 priests and about 500,000 people in holy orders during his term. The Church is in a very poor state, in crisis in fact. JPII and the Vatican is blamed for a lot of that, as he got older he became more and more autocratic. The Cardinals don't want another Pope like that. Neither do the clergy or laeity.
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In the company I keep, you'd find it hard to hear one word of criticism for pope John Paul II. And given that almost all of them are faithful, young Catholics, who will soon be having families and putting butts in the seats, I think that's something that needs to be considered.
Just because the priests are declining, doesn't mean that the papacy is responsible, rather I would be astonished if they did not drop, due to the general cultural shift away from religious orders.
Yes, there is a need for priests, and yes that need is increasing. But I'm not worried about the church. People are flocking to the Catholic church, because of what the church stands for, in rejection of the world, and not in submission to it.
I still think it is better to not have married priests, since the one who is married has his attentions divided, while the one who is unmarried, can devote himself entirely to God.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:35
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quote:
Birth control was the issue that damaged the church the most. Thats blown up again because of aids.
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How so? If all the other churches approve of birth control, and the Catholic chruch rejects birth control, why don't we see people joining these other churches? The catholic church is one of the few churches that are still growing here in Canada, while the Anglicans, and United churches continue to hemorrhage members. This is despite the fact that both churches approve of birth control.
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The married priest question was one of the low points of this pontificate. The church already has married priests, they are Anglican/Episcopalian converts mostly. But the Pope said the celibacy rule would not be relaxed even though it has no theological basis and this is not disputed.
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Granted, the requirement of unmarried priests is one of tradition, but there are sound reasons behind this requirement.
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The women priests thing was even worse - not only did JPII rule it out completely but he forbade discussion of it. How can you forbid discussion of something? The days when the Vatican can just issue edicts and everyone obeys are long gone.
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It hearkens back to your earlier statement as to the theological basis. These issues have different roots, the celibacy rule rests on tradition, while the one forbidding female priests, upon theology.
In fact, one of the reasons I like the catholic church is that they deny men and women are interchangeable parts, rather each has their own function in the church.
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
How so? If all the other churches approve of birth control, and the Catholic chruch rejects birth control, why don't we see people joining these other churches? The catholic church is one of the few churches that are still growing here in Canada, while the Anglicans, and United churches continue to hemorrhage members. This is despite the fact that both churches approve of birth control.
Granted, the requirement of unmarried priests is one of tradition, but there are sound reasons behind this requirement.
It hearkens back to your earlier statement as to the theological basis. These issues have different roots, the celibacy rule rests on tradition, while the one forbidding female priests, upon theology.
In fact, one of the reasons I like the catholic church is that they deny men and women are interchangeable parts, rather each has their own function in the church. |
among SDAs it is encouraged that pastors and elders be married
I beleive that it is mentioned in Paul that church leaders should be married
JOn Miller
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Jon Miller
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I agree with that
Jon Miller
(although I do accept the Trinity idea... it isn't the only interpretation of the Bible)
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MRT144
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Seattle Washington
Oct 2002
time: 21:35
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i think the problem is everyone wants the catholic church to bend to them, not vice versa. and for better or worse its thinning out the catholic church.
p.s.
whats another name for a lutheran?
recovering catholic
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DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
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By the way, I don't really agree with AH's analysis of the church as a whole being in crisis. In the US, the church is in crisis in many areas because of the pedophilia scandals. But it doesn't really seem to go beyond that much. Asses are staying in seats, on the whole. Indeed, I think the crisis is in large part the result of too little oversight by Rome, not too much.
Much of the West European church is in a state of grave disrepair, but I view that as a centuries-long process. It isn't a new thing that asses aren't in seats.
Parts of the Central/Eastern European church are going great guns. Africa and Asia are growing quickly with new converts. Latin America has challenges, but there is no crisis.
Now the question is whether the concerns of the Western European church will hold sway in the conclave. I suggest that the full airing of views will not be dominated by the concerns that AH mentions.
Last edited by DanS on 05-04-2005 at 20:00
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Proteus_MST
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
It's a lot more complicated than that. Families cost the church money and time. Families make missionary work more difficult. Scandal has accompanied married priests as well at times in the past -- the church has a long, long memory...
There are good reasons why the church has kept priests unmarried for so long, which you'll have to recognize in order to have an honest and full discussion of the matter. |
Never heard that the evangelical churches had any of the problems you mentioned, although they generally allow their priests to marry (at least no problems nowadays).
So it maybe wise from the new pope to discuss if the celibate still makes sense.
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Brent
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If there were no female priests in the bible, why should there be now? the Priesthood is not so much a privelige as a responsibility. The genders have separate but equal responsibilities. Maybe if men could naturally bear children, women could be priests. Men and women have differences, differences in personality, differences in nature, differences in abilities, differences in talents.
Having the experience of raising children is good training for church leadership. Ideally church leadership should not be a means of income.
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05-04-2005 12:38
As a convert and a citizen of a country where about half the people are Muslim, Arinze had special qualifications for the job Pope John Paul II gave him in 1985, head of the Vatican body now known as the Pontifical Council for Inter-Religious Dialogue. It is in this role as ambassador to other faiths that he is largely known outside Nigeria and the Vatican today.
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