06-04-2005 04:29									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij quote: And there are interpretations of the decline which have nothing to do with the role of the Pope. Maybe... But over here we think otherwise. You should read some of the commentaries in our papers about the role of JP2. The initial "nothing bad about the dead" is over and reflection has started.

yeah there's similar commentary here in Australia - some of it quite venomous. Seems like the non catholics liked him more than the catholics.

He was in charge for 26 years and I can't think of a single memorable thing he said

	06-04-2005 04:34									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse yeah there's similar commentary here in Australia - some of it quite venomous. Seems like the no catholics liked him more than the catholics.

Maybe it's just that Americans liked him more than the non-Americans (besides the Poles). Not sure though

	06-04-2005 04:34									#93
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I think he said "urbi et orbi" now and again, some kind of a catchline there...

	06-04-2005 04:34									#94
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quote: This guy is suggesting that Paul was a stereotypical self-loathing homosexual, like the marine in American Beauty.

Self-loathing is focussed inwards. Preaching is focussed outwards.

	06-04-2005 04:41									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Self-loathing is focussed inwards. Preaching is focussed outwards.

Haven't you heard of the concept that the most virulent homophobes are in fact gay themselves, and that they project their internal hatred for themselves outward against actual gays? It's a pretty common claim. I think that the poster name Thorn fits this description, judging by things I read in one of his recent threads. He was virulently anti-gay a few years ago, and now is openly gay.

	06-04-2005 04:42									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove But church attendance has been falling in Europe for all denominations for decades anyway. Is the Pope responsible for falling attendance in the Church of England too?

The general decline in traditional expressions of spirituality in Western societies is one of the alternative interpretations I was alluding to.

	06-04-2005 04:44									#97
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quote: Originally posted by DanS By the way, I don't really agree with AH's analysis of the church as a whole being in crisis. In the US, the church is in crisis in many areas because of the pedophilia scandals. But it doesn't really seem to go beyond that much. Asses are staying in seats, on the whole. Indeed, I think the crisis is in large part the result of too little oversight by Rome, not too much.

Are American Catholics really staying put? Or are their numbers stable (or growing) because O'Farrell and Kowalski are leaving the church, but are easily replaced in those pews by Gonzales and Dela Cruz? Just curious.

	06-04-2005 04:47									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Are American Catholics really staying put? Or are their numbers stable (or growing) because O'Farrell and Kowalski are leaving the church, but are easily replaced in those pews by Gonzales and Dela Cruz? Just curious.

I think that there is a sizeable contingent of fundy catholics who are, surprisingly enough, becoming ever more closely allied with their fundy protestant peers.

The weirdest thing that I have noticed is that there are large numbers of Hispanic Pentacostals (of all denominations). Do they get struck by the spirit and start speaking English?

	06-04-2005 04:51									#99
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quote: Haven't you heard of the concept that the most virulent homophobes are in fact gay themselves, and that they project their internal hatred for themselves outward against actual gays?

It's a stereotype according to you, is it not?

My point stands, that internal hatred is focussed inwards, and manifests itself in many different ways apart from outward hatred.

The last thing someone who hates himself wants to do is to put those feelings towards other people. That's the whole point of focussing the hatred inwards, to keep from hurting other people.

	06-04-2005 04:53									#100
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quote: He was in charge for 26 years and I can't think of a single memorable thing he said

Well, is that your fault or his?

	06-04-2005 04:56									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It's a stereotype according to you, is it not? My point stands, that internal hatred is focussed inwards, and manifests itself in many different ways apart from outward hatred. The last thing someone who hates himself wants to do is to put those feelings towards other people. That's the whole point of focussing the hatred inwards, to keep from hurting other people.

This idea that people would outwardly project internal angst isn't something that I made up today. It's a concept that has been around for a long time. You hate others for something that you consciously (or subconsciously) fear and hate about yourself. I'm not saying that I totally buy into this theory, and I think that those on the left like to use it too often, but I think that it does have some merit.

	06-04-2005 04:59									#102
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In reality, the gift of tongues is normally for the purpose of actually speaking the language necessary to communicate with those around you, and even then, it is normally not quite as supernatural as you hear of. Your capacity to learn a language through studying is increased is what it usually is.

	06-04-2005 05:01									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Brent In reality, the gift of tongues is normally for the purpose of actually speaking the language necessary to communicate with those around you, and even then, it is normally not quite as supernatural as you hear of. Your capacity to learn a language through studying is increased is what it usually is.

That hasn't been the case in any of the charasmatic services that I have attended. People claim that they're hit with the spirit, roll on the floor, speak in gibberish, etc. I think they're frauds.

	06-04-2005 05:14									#104
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quote: Are American Catholics really staying put? Or are their numbers stable (or growing) because O'Farrell and Kowalski are leaving the church, but are easily replaced in those pews by Gonzales and Dela Cruz? Just curious.

Although my perception is that they are, I would be willing to hear evidence to the contrary. To be fair, it's difficult to know for sure, considering that Americans move from place to place so often and there has been a big urbanization process going on as well. That said, most of the churches that I have attended have been very well attended, even in the city at English-language masses (spanish-language masses don't seem to be supplanting English-language masses, but rather complementing them). Also, there are lots of churches being built.

There are wrinkles. As AH alludes to, the church's teaching on contraception is widely ignored, even in or especially in the red states. But so far that hasn't seemed to impact church attendance any more than other things in previous generations. The pedophilia scandals greatly negatively impacted the church's moral standing and I'm sure it impacted giving at least temporarily. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that attendance was negatively impacted temporarily too.

Also, as noted, the number of priests and religious has fallen off rather substantially. But I bet that has a lot more to do with no more 4th sons becoming priests, etc. The structure of the post-modern family seems particularly ill-suited to generating priests in great numbers. On the other hand, my brother was in the seminary and left it at the last minute to marry, so undoubtedly there are other issues going on with regard to post-modern life. The priest at my sister's parish just left the priesthood because of what is assumed to be marriage.

Tellingly, at the mass for the pope (attended by Bush), Cardinal McCarrick spent a good half minute praying for new priests and religious. The prayers for new priests keep getting longer and longer...

	06-04-2005 05:14									#105
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Yep, that sort of thing I do consider false usually. Genuine holy things are not for display like that.

	06-04-2005 05:20									#106
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quote: I'm not saying that I totally buy into this theory, and I think that those on the left like to use it too often

And that's the point I was after. All we have here is speculation, in which there are equally plausible answers to the same question.

	06-04-2005 05:24									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST IMHO it depends on what the majority of the Vatican wishes.

Well, duh

	06-04-2005 05:25									#108
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quote: That hasn't been the case in any of the charasmatic services that I have attended. People claim that they're hit with the spirit, roll on the floor, speak in gibberish, etc. I think they're frauds.

Then you've seen something firsthand that I have not. The problem is that you look at pentecost, and how all the pilgrims who heard the apostles heard them in their own language, even though the apostles were unlearned men from Galilee.

One of the fruits of the spirit is tongues, and you are also right, that publicly, it should also manifest with the gift of interpretation so that everyone may be edified. Tongues can be in both a known language unknown to the speaker, or in a completely unknown tongue.

	06-04-2005 05:26									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And that's the point I was after. All we have here is speculation, in which there are equally plausible answers to the same question.

I can accept that you don't buy the validity of the concept of projection. However, it seemed as though you were denying that such a concept even existed.

	06-04-2005 05:32									#110
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I'm not doubting projection, just saying that there are equally plausible interpretations for the similar reactions. Not everyone who hates himself will self-project, it is just that those we will know about will self-project.

Those who keep it to themselves are going to be rather hard for us to pick them out of a crowd.

To say that because Apostle Paul hates himself, does not necessarily follow that he will project those feelings onto others.

	06-04-2005 05:36									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I'm not doubting projection, just saying that there are equally plausible interpretations for the similar reactions. Not everyone who hates himself will self-project, it is just that those we will know about will self-project. Those who keep it to themselves are going to be rather hard for us to pick them out of a crowd. To say that because Apostle Paul hates himself, does not necessarily follow that he will project those feelings onto others.

I think that that's a perfectly plausible argument, and I personally believe that there are many "homophobes" who aren't secretly homosexual. However, I thought that this Spong guy put an interesting spin on things. He is about a half-step away from being an Atheist, yet he calls himself a Bishop.

	06-04-2005 05:57									#112
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Ben, its a bit hard to deny Saint Paul's self loathing because he refers to it over and over in his letters

	06-04-2005 09:04									#113
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Regarding the Pope's failures, his lack of action regarding the American Priests and their fetish for having sex with children was a complete letdown.

	06-04-2005 10:00									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Regarding the Pope's failures, his lack of action regarding the American Priests and their fetish for having sex with children was a complete letdown.

Some speculate this is part of why JP2 became more authoritarian as his reign as pontiff drew to a close. He had dropped the ball by not taking the situation seriously enough from the start (and by entrusting the situation to Cardinal Law), and got burned by it.

	06-04-2005 10:01									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Regarding the Pope's failures, his lack of action regarding the American Priests and their fetish for having sex with children was a complete letdown.

Especially for US priests because only 3% were involved but because the Hierarchy covered up, and the Vatican played a role in that, all American priests got tarred with the same brush.

	06-04-2005 10:07									#116
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quote: It's more a function of US influence keeping the Latin American governments from harrassing American missionaries.

Well these days Latin American protestantism is much much more homegrown than it used to be and it (especially its Pentacostal varieties) are making deep inroads into Latin America and are growing faster than Catholicism in most of the rest of the Third World.

	06-04-2005 10:43									#117
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So does anyone actually think it would be better for the guy in charge to be less authoritarian than to act concerning what those priests did?

I guess my religion is less significant over all in South America than I thought. it has about 3 million members there out of 12 million worldwide, so I guess Protestantism is a bigger deal down there.

	06-04-2005 10:59									#118
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the catholic church is an empty shell in some parts of Latin America - like Guatemala - in terms of active church goers the evangelicals have take over.

	06-04-2005 14:04									#119
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quote: Ben, its a bit hard to deny Saint Paul's self loathing because he refers to it over and over in his letters

But it is for many other reasons rather than being gay. After all, he had plenty of sins to loathe himself over.

	06-04-2005 14:15									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff Wasn't Paul heavily influenced by a particularly misogynistic brand of Greek philosophy? Women were inferior, borderline evil. Sex in itself is bad. Must keep the body entirely pure.

Yes he was. The whole point about the New Testament is that people who imagine that it is for all time and the literal truth miss out a few important things- Saul/Paul was a zealous persecutor of another Jewish sect, who then converted to that sect. Converts have a great tendency to be even more ultra- whatever the prevailing tenets of their faith are- and there is a great swathe of anti-sex and anti-female literature and feeling in the early Christian churches- from people like St Jerome to Origen who castrated himself.

The sense that the Messiah was due at any time was of course prevalent amongst many of the Christian groups- which of course reflects the anti-worldly, anti-carnality feelings you'll find in the New Testament- a similar approach to some Buddhist/Hindu views of the material world as Maya, illusion.

Of course Alexandria had been in contact with India and the Hellenized areas of modern day Pakistan and Afghanistan and indeed the Seleucid Empire and its successor states in the Near East. I recall reading about Buddhist missionaries reaching Alexandria but can't recall the name of the book, unfortunately.

Anyway, ignore those awful management speak quotes about overseers and pay more attention to what actually happened- the history of married priests speaks louder than poor translations.