25-04-2005 19:29									#361
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Economically, yes. Politically, no. In fact, I'd say it's a bit worse.

I'm interested.

Could you please describe what has grown worse since?

It was my belief that the overall political apathy of the Chinese population made the elites less gun-happy. Would you please tell me what hints otherwise?

	25-04-2005 19:51									#362
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The apathy is the problem. The elites have been free to do what they want and have been able to nestle themselves firmly in power. The recent protests kept known "trouble makers" under house arrest. Students who were not authorized to protest were put into classrooms where they could be monitored by their teachers and less politically rebelious classmates. Just because less guns are fired, doesn't mean the system is less oppressive. Just the opposite in this case. Fear and lack of opportunity are keeping a lot people from openly expressing their grievances. Farmers and poor minorities are the only ones left to protest now, because they have nothing to lose.

	25-04-2005 23:26									#363
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The CCP is willing to kill thousands, even millions, to stay in power. People power is useless against them unless the people are armed.

Oh, I don't think that's true at all. These days the CCP seems far less likely to use lethal force. In all of the uprisings of the last few years, this has never been the case, as far as I know. Even when thousands of citizens were stoning gov't officials huddling inside buildings, lethal force was not used.

Just look at the recent raid on the village of HuanKantou. The raiders were equipped tear gas and cattle prods, but guns were never used, even after villagers broke down the walls the police were hiding behind. By the way, it may be that the reason the villagers so easily routed the police is that many of the "police" may have been unwitting irregulars rounded up under false pretenses (mountain hiking!), who refused to participate or ran at the first sign of trouble.

The CCP's current MO is usually to send in Beijing officials to make soothing statements and concessions (which may or may not materialize), letting the public cool off, then ferreting out the organizers and severely punishing them.

	25-04-2005 23:48									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The CCP boys are only interested in keeping their power. and they know that their regime is too weak to survive a widespread revolution/uprising. There was a time where the Chinese regime found loyalty by force-feeding an ideology, and ruthlessly massacre anybody who disagreed. This time forunately belongs to the past, as the CCP has considerably mellowed out, and you can't really prop up the communist ideology when you are a blatant capitalist regime. As such, the CCP's new form of keeping the people content is threefold: 1) feed them with economic growth, so that they're content with the outputs of the regime. 2) Keep them as apthetic toward the regime as possible, by isolating/offing activists, and letting no communication channel free of giving new ideas. OTOH, let them be obsessed about buying the latest cell phone. 3) Channel their discontent toward an enemy that is not the regime. The Japanese make a fantastic target. Look like the one party that cares for the glorious Chinese nation.

I thnk that's very accurate, especially the part about cell phones.

	26-04-2005 01:55									#365
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Question: Is there any difference between today's CCP and yesterday's Nazi Germany? Both were totalitarian regimes that supported capitalism while also supporting socialism (universal health care, Volkswagen). Both were extremely nationalistic. Both had a racially-based boogeyman: Jews in the case of Nazi Germany. Japanese in the case of China. Both have territorial demands. Taiwan in the case of China.

Are there any differences that matter between the two regimes?

	26-04-2005 02:07									#366
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I suppose there are some differences, but they certainly have some similarities Ned.

	26-04-2005 02:17									#367
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I suppose there are some differences, but they certainly have some similarities Ned.

Then are we to learn any lessons from the evolution of the Chinese Communist Party vs. communisms demise in the USSR?:

Communism evolves into Nazism or it is replaced by democracy.

	26-04-2005 02:20									#368
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Then are we to learn any lessons from the evolution of the Chinese Communist Party vs. communisms demise in the USSR?: Communism evolves into Nazism or it is replaced by democracy.

Those aren't the only two possibilities, and Russia is still no paradise regardless of it being somewhat more democratic now.

	26-04-2005 02:31									#369
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Those aren't the only two possibilities, and Russia is still no paradise regardless of it being somewhat more democratic now.

Perhaps, but it "officially" supports capitalism and is drifting, I agree, towards fascism. Perhaps the fate of all communists nations is to embrace capitalism and become, in essence, fascist states.

	26-04-2005 03:10									#370
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Question: Is there any difference between today's CCP and yesterday's Nazi Germany? Both were totalitarian regimes that supported capitalism while also supporting socialism (universal health care, Volkswagen). Both were extremely nationalistic. Both had a racially-based boogeyman: Jews in the case of Nazi Germany. Japanese in the case of China. Both have territorial demands. Taiwan in the case of China. Are there any differences that matter between the two regimes?

China believes Taiwan is a renegade province. It isn't going to be invading countries left and right. In fact it hasn't engaged in any aggressive war since the Revolution. While they may dislike Japanese, they have a good reason, and they haven't make them second class citizens, nor put them in camps and slaughter them.

Also they are set up differently.

That's fairly significant distinction.

	26-04-2005 03:16									#371
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Perhaps, but it "officially" supports capitalism and is drifting, I agree, towards fascism. Perhaps the fate of all communists nations is to embrace capitalism and become, in essence, fascist states.

I think culture might have something to do with it.

	26-04-2005 03:24									#372
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui China believes Taiwan is a renegade province. It isn't going to be invading countries left and right. In fact it hasn't engaged in any aggressive war since the Revolution. While they may dislike Japanese, they have a good reason, and they haven't make them second class citizens, nor put them in camps and slaughter them. Also they are set up differently. That's fairly significant distinction.

They invaded Shinkaing and Tibet, annexing both. They invaded Vietnam, but were handed their lunch. They are making noises about Taiwan, but are restrained by US Power.

There is a lot of evidence of aggressive, nationalistic, behavior.

	26-04-2005 03:26									#373
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I think culture might have something to do with it.

True. Both China and Russia never really knew democracy.

Can the same be said of Germany though? (It is amazing, when you think of it, that anyone could have taken a democratic nation into total despotism. But Hitler did.)

	26-04-2005 03:31									#374
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quote: Originally posted by Ned It is amazing, when you think of it, that anyone could have taken a democratic nation into total despotism. But Hitler did.

It's hardly amazing. In fact, it's extremely common for new democracies to sucumb to strongmen: England, France (twice), Spain, Germany, Italy, Poland, the Baltic states, etc. etc.

The U.S. is more the exception here than the rule. We were blessed with a founding generation that valued democracy. Not merely a generation, but an unheard of quantity of great democratic leaders. Despite this, there was an early attempt to establish a dicatorship here that fortunately fizzled out: Arron Burr's attempted coup. And of course, there was the Cincinatus Society which wanted to make Washington King George I.

	26-04-2005 03:33									#375
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quote: Originally posted by Ned True. Both China and Russia never really knew democracy. Can the same be said of Germany though? (It is amazing, when you think of it, that anyone could have taken a democratic nation into total despotism. But Hitler did.)

Germany was too militaristic and nationalistic to be very democratic.

	26-04-2005 03:37									#376
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I would hardly call the Weimar republic democracy either.

	26-04-2005 04:05									#377
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui China believes Taiwan is a renegade province. It isn't going to be invading countries left and right. In fact it hasn't engaged in any aggressive war since the Revolution.

The invasion of Tibet doesn't count? Nor the invasion of Korea or the continuing occupation of 1/4 of Kashmir or the 1979 invasion of Northern Vietnam or the 1981 border war against the Soviets? There was also an invasion of several small islands in the Formosa straight in 1958 which resulted in Eisenhower threatening to nuke Communist China if they again attempted to take Taiwanese territory. Then there are the threats of invasion to Taiwan, the sabre rattling over the Spraitleys, and various other border disputes.

We haven't even counted peaceful expansions such as the retaking of Hong Kong or Macau and still we have a picture of a country which is pretty aggressively expansionist.

	26-04-2005 05:59									#378
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The invasion of Tibet doesn't count? Nor the invasion of Korea or the continuing occupation of 1/4 of Kashmir or the 1979 invasion of Northern Vietnam or the 1981 border war against the Soviets? There was also an invasion of several small islands in the Formosa straight in 1958 which resulted in Eisenhower threatening to nuke Communist China if they again attempted to take Taiwanese territory. Then there are the threats of invasion to Taiwan, the sabre rattling over the Spraitleys, and various other border disputes. We haven't even counted peaceful expansions such as the retaking of Hong Kong or Macau and still we have a picture of a country which is pretty aggressively expansionist.

None of that is in Chinese textbooks, so it's all pro-Japanese propaganda.

	26-04-2005 10:41									#380
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye Oh, I don't think that's true at all. These days the CCP seems far less likely to use lethal force. In all of the uprisings of the last few years, this has never been the case, as far as I know. Even when thousands of citizens were stoning gov't officials huddling inside buildings, lethal force was not used. Just look at the recent raid on the village of HuanKantou. The raiders were equipped tear gas and cattle prods, but guns were never used, even after villagers broke down the walls the police were hiding behind. By the way, it may be that the reason the villagers so easily routed the police is that many of the "police" may have been unwitting irregulars rounded up under false pretenses (mountain hiking!), who refused to participate or ran at the first sign of trouble. The CCP's current MO is usually to send in Beijing officials to make soothing statements and concessions (which may or may not materialize), letting the public cool off, then ferreting out the organizers and severely punishing them.

I could see a Tiannanmen-like scenario repeating in the current environment with as much reluctance to use force as before. However, I do see it being more difficult for such a protest to even begin as well as reach the level of requiring a military response.

	01-05-2005 22:33									#381
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The Japanese still love to beat and rape women. This recent movie, Ichi the Killer, just appeared on the Sundance channel. It is so bad as to be beyond description. But it opens with a brutal rape. Ichi is watching from a balconey. As he leaves, he leaves behind a load of semen (real) on a leaf. It is obvious that Ichi is sexually arroused by the rape, just as is the rapist. But, so are the Japanese it seems.

http://www.kfccinema.com/reviews/horror/ichi/ichi.html

	02-05-2005 02:35									#382
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Sundance Channel

	02-05-2005 02:54									#383
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Sundance Channel

Kid, I agree.

But, still, there is something very sick about the Japanese obscession with brutal rapes and indeed beating women up and torturing them. They have it in so much of their porn and even mainstream movies. There is little wonder to me that this is the reason for all the brutal rapes, etc., in the war. But what should concern us is that nothing seems to have changed in their culture.

	02-05-2005 02:56									#384
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Sex is kind of violent anyway if you ask me. I don't know if it's just Japanese. I would never rape anyway (not really anyway). I've said too much though.

	02-05-2005 03:00									#385
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quote: But, still, there is something very sick about the Japanese obscession with brutal rapes and indeed beating women up and torturing them. They have it in so much of their porn and even mainstream movies.

You should try asking an Australasian veteran of the Asian campaign about the Japanese.

Whew!!

	02-05-2005 03:23									#386
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: But, still, there is something very sick about the Japanese obscession with brutal rapes and indeed beating women up and torturing them. They have it in so much of their porn and even mainstream movies. You should try asking an Australasian veteran of the Asian campaign about the Japanese. Whew!!

Well, my Dad fought from Guadalcanal to New Guinea to Leyte Gulf to the liberation of the Bataan Peninsula. He would speak of leading platoons through dense jungle in night attacks and running into Japanese ambushes in which virtually the entire company he was leading was wiped out. My dad had nothing kind to say it all about the Japanese.