Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Off-Topic > Whoi knew a bunch of Japanese textbook could cause such trouble?
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!
20.Sep: FOURTH CHAPTER IN `HISTORY OF...` PUBLISHED
13.Sep: NEWS ON THE FLY
06.Sep: APOLYTON DONATES TO HURRICANE RELIEF

bottom of page
   - CIVILIZATION 3 $9.99 - CIVILIZATION 2 from $6.95 - CIVILIZATION 2 from $4.25 - ALPHA CENTAURI + ALIEN CROSSFIRE (laptop collection) from $19.99 - ALPHA CENTAURI PC $9.99 -->
Author
Thread   
Pages (13): [ <<   8   9   10   11   12   13   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 18:05
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#301 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

quote:
Japan PM Apologizes for WWII Aggression

JAKARTA, Indonesia Apr 22, 2005 — Japan's prime minister on Friday apologized for his country's World War II aggression in Asia but a Chinese official dismissed the remarks, saying "actions are more important" than words.

He spoke after Japanese lawmakers made a controversial visit to a war shrine just hours before their prime minister apologized for wartime misdeeds.

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's expression of "deep remorse" at a summit of Asian and African leaders in Jakarta did not go beyond what Japanese leaders previously have said.

But its delivery at the international gathering clearly was aimed at easing an escalating row with China over Tokyo's handling of its wartime atrocities and its bid for a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council.

Relations between the two Asian powers have plunged in recent weeks to a three-decade low.

"In the past Japan through its colonial rule and aggression caused tremendous damage and suffering for the people of many countries, particularly those of Asian nations," Koizumi said at the summit's opening ceremony. "Japan squarely faces these facts of history in a spirit of humility."

In response to the apology, however, China's ambassador to South Korea, Li Bin, said: "Of course, words are important. But I believe actions are more important."

Just hours before Koizumi's speech, about 80 Parliament members made a pilgrimage to a Tokyo shrine that honors executed Japanese World War II criminals along with other war dead. There were no Cabinet ministers among the group, which visited the shrine in observance of an annual spring festival.

"We express strong dissatisfaction over the negative actions of some Japanese politicians," China's Foreign Ministry said of the visit to the Yasukuni Shrine.

It called on Japan to take actions that are "more conducive to improving and developing Sino-Japanese relations," citing the "current severe situation."

Koizumi said he was hoping for a one-on-one meeting with Chinese President Hu Jintao in Jakarta on Saturday, Japan's Kyodo news agency reported. But China says it's still considering the proposal.


http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=693523

Koizumi must know that nothing he can say or do will ever placate the Chinese. I'm surprised he even bothered; I thought he was taking a stand against the browbeating from Japan's East Asian neighbors.

Combat Ingrid is offline Combat Ingrid
Chieftain
Satan's Majestic Empire
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 18:29
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#302 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Koizumi must know that nothing he can say or do will ever placate the Chinese. I'm surprised he even bothered; I thought he was taking a stand against the browbeating from Japan's East Asian neighbors.


It's a good strategy to be humble. If China keeps *****ing, they just prove to the world who's the real bad guy

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 18:31
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#303 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Koizumi must know that nothing he can say or do will ever placate the Chinese. I'm surprised he even bothered; I thought he was taking a stand against the browbeating from Japan's East Asian neighbors.

I wonder if the Chinese press is triumphant about it, showing how the glorious Chinese people forced the Japanese weasels to back of... Or if the press is completely silent, in order to let the anger and hatred continue unabated.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 18:35
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#304 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote:
It's a good strategy to be humble.


Japan's been humble for 60 years. What good has it done them with China?

quote:
I wonder if the Chinese press is triumphant about it, showing how the glorious Chinese people forced the Japanese weasels to back of... Or if the press is completely silent, in order to let the anger and hatred continue unabated.


Probably both. They can spin this as the Japanese giving in and claim that it's not an "official" apology, thereby allowing the anger and hatred to continue unabated.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 18:36
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#305 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I bet they bury it in page 97 just like they did he fist 17 Japanese apalogies. Even people in Hong Kong like UR mindlessly swallow the CCP's message of lies and hate.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
Deity
Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 20:15 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#306 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

apologies aren't much good unless Japanese politicians stop visiting the Yakasune shrine.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 23:23
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#307 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
apologies aren't much good unless Japanese politicians stop visiting the Yakasune shrine.


Can they remove the remains of the war criminals? If they can, that would indeed help.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 23-04-2005 01:00 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#308 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor

I wonder if the Chinese press is triumphant about it, showing how the glorious Chinese people forced the Japanese weasels to back of... Or if the press is completely silent, in order to let the anger and hatred continue unabated.
\

I don't see anything in the People's Daily Online , but maybe they are still waiting on the Party word.

edit: Actually there is something there. They are down playing the apology, saying it wasn't genuine. That's crap.

Last edited by Kidicious on 23-04-2005 at 01:10

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 01:36
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#309 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

This is interesting in that it appears that the last wave of anti-Japanese protests (in response to Versailles) lead to

1) an overthrow of the Imperium
2) the founding of the CCP
3) WWII in the Far East

"According to the Hong Kong-based Open magazine last September, former Chinese leader Jiang Zemin was alarmed by the soccer riot of “extreme nationalists” who, he argued, were not targeting the Japanese but “the central government”. He warned that the “so-called anti-Japanese patriotic movement” would threaten political stability. The comments foreshadowed a crackdown in universities against “anti-Japanese” activities.

Beijing is well aware of the historical precedents such as May 4 movement in 1919, which was sparked by the decision at the Versailles peace conference to hand Germany’s colonial concessions in China to Japan. Mass protests of students and workers not only targetted Japan but China’s corrupt government for accepting the conference decision. This anti-imperialist struggle anticipated the founding of the Chinese Communist Party and the revolutionary eruption in 1925-27."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/a.../chin-a08.shtml

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 02:15
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#310 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

More:

"China Betrayed
U.S. president Woodrow Wilson once described a negotiating technique he used on an associate. "When you have hooked him," explained Wilson, "first you draw in a little, then give liberty to the line, then draw him back, finally wear him out, break him down, and land him."{20}

A Chinese-Japanese conflict would challenge Wilson's negotiating skills.{21} The Chinese had joined the Allies and hoped for fair treatment in Paris. Many Chinese admired Western democracy and Wilson's idealistic vision.

Shantung was a strategic peninsula below Beijing. Confucius, the great philosopher, was born there. His ideas permeated Chinese society. Shantung had thirty million people, cheap labor, plentiful minerals and a natural harbor. Shantung silk is still fashionable today. In the late 1890s, Germany seized Shantung. In 1914, Japan took it from the Germans.{22}

In Paris, Japan wanted Shantung. Japan sported a collection of secret agreements that remind one of a Survivor TV series. China placed hope in Wilson's famous Fourteen Points, which rejected secret treaties and included self-determination.{23}

The Chinese ambassador to Washington called Shantung "a Holy Land for the Chinese" and said that under foreign control it would be a "dagger pointed at the heart of China."{24} Wilson seemed sympathetic at first, but the decision on Shantung had to wait until late April as the Allies finalized the German treaty. By then, an avalanche of decisions was overwhelming the peacemakers. When the Japanese forced their hand, Wilson, Clemenceau and Lloyd George conceded Shantung to Japan in exchange for Japan's concession on another significant treaty matter.{25}

Chinese blamed Wilson for betraying them. On May 4, thousands of demonstrators rallied in Tiananmen Square. The dean of humanities from Beijing University distributed leaflets. May 4 marked the rejection of the West by many Chinese intellectuals. New Russian communism looked attractive to some. In 1921, radicals founded the Chinese Communist Party. That dean of humanities who had distributed leaflets became its first chairman, Mao Tse-tung. His party won power in 1949{26} and today . . . have you listened to the news recently?"

http://www.probe.org/docs/paris.html

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 13:31
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#311 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
apologies aren't much good unless Japanese politicians stop visiting the Yakasune shrine.


That's never going to happen.

mindseye is offline mindseye
King
A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 18:25
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#312 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

Probably their is no conceivable form of apology - not even ritual disembowelment - that would ever be considered satisfactory by Chinese Japan-haters.

There is simply too much to gain in too many ways by keeping the hate alive and smoldering, even if the sparks are occasionally dangerous to the flame fanners.

Tomorrow I will ask one of my classes if anyone heard of the apology.

Last edited by mindseye on 24-04-2005 at 18:39

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
Deity
Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 18:38 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#313 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
apologies aren't much good unless Japanese politicians stop visiting the Yakasune shrine.


That's never going to happen.


yep, its a b*tch

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 18:39
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#314 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length



True enough...

mindseye is offline mindseye
King
A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 18:47
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#315 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

It would be like China demanding that American presidents cease visiting Arlington cemetary because there were a number of veterans from the Boxer Rebellion buried there.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 19:01
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#316 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Hu warns on Japan dispute

JAKARTA, Indonesia -- Chinese President Hu Jintao has warned that his country's dispute with Japan over Tokyo's World War II aggression could affect the stability and development of Asia, and urged the Japanese to back up their apologies with action.

Hu was speaking after a 55-minute meeting on Saturday evening with Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi on the sidelines of the Asian-African summit in Jakarta.

"At the moment Sino-Japanese relations face a difficult situation. Such a difficult situation is not one we want to see," Hu told reporters after the closed-door meeting.

If the problem cannot be solved "it would be detrimental to China and Japan and would affect stability and development in Asia," he added.

Koizumi told reporters it was a "very good meeting," as he left the venue.

It was the first top-level discussion since massive anti-Japanese protests erupted earlier this month in major Chinese cities over Tokyo's approval of school textbooks that China claims play down wartime atrocities.

Hu said the strong reaction of the Chinese people is "something the Japanese side should seriously reflect on."

The meeting came a day after Koizumi offered the most public apology in a decade over Japan's wartime aggression in Asia. Koizumi's expression of "deep remorse" broke no new ground, but the rare appeal was a clear attempt to reverse the worst erosion of ties between Tokyo and Beijing since diplomatic relations were established in 1972.

However, Hu said Tokyo should back up its words of remorse with action.


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiap...ting/index.html

You have to admire the audacity of the Chinese. They manufacture a crisis and then have the gall to demand the Japanese take action to resolve said crisis. Even more amazing, it seems to be working, at least as far as chastening the Japanese leadership. Unreal...

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 19:14
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#317 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm constantly surprised at how so many governments are full of pussies...

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 19:23
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#318 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

It looks like UR is pwned again.

quote:

Much of the rhetoric was overtly hateful, even racist.

"Japanese dwarfs," one banner read, "Japanese devils," another.

The crowd turned its rage on anything Japanese they could lay their hands on.

Restaurants with Japanese signs had their windows smashed. A Honda car was set upon, its windows shattered and doors kicked in.


The BBC article goes on to talk about how the Chinese Communist Government lies about most of its history and rewrites it to blame everything bad upon the CCP's enemies. While some how China and the CCP always come out as the poor innocent victim.

If the Japanese text books are failing to fully detail somethings the Chinese are overtly lying in order to rewrite history.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programm...ent/4473415.stm

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 19:29
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#319 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote:

China's own history has been relentlessly rewritten to erase the episodes the Communist Party would rather forget. Ask any young Chinese about Mao's disastrous "great leap forward" campaign in which more than 20 million people starved to death, and you will get a blank stare.

Ask about China's unprovoked invasion of Vietnam in 1979 in which tens of thousands of Vietnamese were killed. Again, nothing.

Last week China's Prime Minister Wen Jiabao declared that:

"Only a country that respects history, and takes responsibility for history, can take greater responsibilities in the international community."

He was talking about Japan, but he could just as well have been talking about China.


Hats off to the BBC for calling it how it is.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:35
Question  Old Post 24-04-2005 19:39
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#320 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
It looks like UR is pwned again.
Aren't we to the point where it's more interesting when we can find instance where UR isn't pwnd? Interesting find with the BBC article though. I had no idea that the rewrites of Chinese history were that extensive.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 19:54
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#321 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the Chinese are calling the Japanese dwarves?

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 20:11
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#322 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I'm constantly surprised at how so many governments are full of pussies...

That's because most governments consider pragmatic concerns to be more important than pride.

Combat Ingrid is offline Combat Ingrid
Chieftain
Satan's Majestic Empire
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 20:13
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#323 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

A Chinese friend of mine once told me that although it's well known that the Chinese penis is smaller than both the European and the African ones, it's at least much bigger than the tiny Japanese penis

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 20:14
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#324 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Am I the only one who finds it funny that the Chinese are calling the Japanese dwarves?

Isn't it an ancient insult, that comes from the time where the Chinese suffered from Japanese piracy? It would make sense historically.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 20:19
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#325 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yeah, I know where it's from. Doesn't make it any less funny, though.

quote:
A Chinese friend of mine once told me that although it's well known that the Chinese penis is smaller than both the European and the African ones, it's at least much bigger than the tiny Japanese penis




I guess that's something to be proud of...

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 21:04
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#326 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
That's because most governments consider pragmatic concerns to be more important than pride.


Eh, I wasn't talking about standing up for what they believe in. They're being weak no matter how you look at it.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 21:38
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#327 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Eh, I wasn't talking about standing up for what they believe in. They're being weak no matter how you look at it.

Maybe the Japanese believe that if they give a symbolic token to China, the Chinese government will finally try to have the protests die down, since the regime could be overwhelmed by them.

These protests are very bad business for Japan, and as such, they can be tempted to do whatever isn't too costly (symbolic acts are great to that effect) and that could help solve the problem.

I'm actually surprised that the Chinese government didn't jump on the opportunity to silence the protests. By continuing to promote them, the CCP is really feeding the monster that will be its end

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 21:44
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#328 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote:
By continuing to promote them, the CCP is really feeding the monster that will be its end


Fixed it for you.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 21:47
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#329 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

quote:
Originally posted by Az
Fixed it for you.

If the monster looks anything like the protests of today, you aren't going to like it, ya know.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 21:50
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#330 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by Combat Ingrid
A Chinese friend of mine once told me that although it's well known that the Chinese penis is smaller than both the European and the African ones, it's at least much bigger than the tiny Japanese penis


[southpark]
Japanese diplomat:I am so sorry but American penis is just so big.

American wife: Don't fall for that line. He's just trying to distract us from the Japanese invasion.

American husband: (smiles and looks satisfied) Well... we do have large penises... I guess this invasion nonsense was over rated.

American wife: His penis can't be that small.

Japanese diplomat: Yes, it is. Look!

Cartman: Damn, that is small.

[/southpark]

 
Pages (13): [ <<   8   9   10   11   12   13   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:35.
Apolyton Time is 00:35.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0707 seconds (92.39% PHP - 7.61% MySQL) with 30 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net