Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Off-Topic > Whoi knew a bunch of Japanese textbook could cause such trouble?
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!
20.Sep: FOURTH CHAPTER IN `HISTORY OF...` PUBLISHED
13.Sep: NEWS ON THE FLY
06.Sep: APOLYTON DONATES TO HURRICANE RELIEF

bottom of page
   - CIVILIZATION 3 $9.99 - CIVILIZATION 2 from $6.95 - CIVILIZATION 2 from $4.25 - ALPHA CENTAURI + ALIEN CROSSFIRE (laptop collection) from $19.99 - ALPHA CENTAURI PC $9.99 -->
Author
Thread   
Pages (13): [ 1   2   3   4     >> ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 22:31
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
Whoi knew a bunch of Japanese textbook could cause such trouble? Put an end to popups!

quote:
History that still hurts

Apr 8th 2005
From The Economist Global Agenda


China and South Korea have excoriated Japan over its approval of new school books which they say whitewash the atrocities committed during Japanese occupation. The lingering bitterness over Japan’s past imperialism still threatens to mar relations between the big East Asian powers


JAPAN’S prime ministers and its emperor have apologised to China for the brutal conduct of the occupying Japanese army in the 1930s-1940s on no fewer than 17 occasions since the two countries restored diplomatic relations in 1972. Seven years ago, Japan also made a written apology for its harsh colonial rule of the Korean peninsula, in 1910-45. But its expressions of regret have never been seen as quite sufficient, especially by China. So, though relations between the East Asian powers have improved greatly since the end of the second world war, Japan’s big neighbours remain acutely sensitive to any words or deeds on its part that suggest a lack of genuine contrition.

The latest such act of perceived impenitence is the Japanese government’s approval of a set of school books written by nationalist historians, which reportedly omit or gloss over such wartime atrocities as the rape of thousands of “comfort women”, captured and used as sex slaves by the Japanese military. Furthermore, to South Korea’s fury, one of the books asserts Japan’s claim to a group of rocky islets that Korea possesses and calls Dodko, which the Japanese call Takeshima. On Thursday April 7th, South Korea’s foreign minister, Ban Ki-moon, had what officials called a “very frank discussion” (ie, a blazing row) with his Japanese counterpart, Nobutaka Machimura, over the issue, telling him that the books had “greatly enraged” his countrymen.

In China, where the fury over the books is even greater, the country’s largest retailers’ association is urging its members to boycott Japanese goods. As in Seoul, the foreign ministry in Beijing has summoned the Japanese ambassador to express official anger. On Beijing’s streets, demonstrators are also reported to have attacked Japanese-owned stores. On Tuesday, Japan said it had asked the Beijing government to help it ensure that Japanese investments in China, and Japanese citizens there, were safe.

China’s own school books are harshly critical of Japan’s conduct in the 20th century’s wars, so even Chinese far too young to remember them harbour strongly anti-Japanese feelings. Last August, after Japan’s victory over China in a soccer match in Beijing, Japanese flags were burnt and a Japanese diplomatic car was vandalised.

Rows over the wording of Japanese history books have been flaring up for a quarter of a century, most recently in 2001 when a previous version of the books at the centre of the current controversy was submitted for approval. Then, the Japanese government demanded over 100 revisions to try to answer the accusations of “airbrushing history”. The government points out that Japanese schools are not obliged to use the approved texts and, indeed, many do not. But to the Chinese and South Koreans, that is beside the point. It is unfortunate that Japan and its neighbours did not set up an equivalent of the Franco-German history textbook commission that, soon after 1945, sought agreement on a common account of the two countries’ bitter history.

This time, the row over school books comes in the wake of several other regional disputes. Japan’s Shimane prefecture designated February 22nd this year as “Takeshima Day”, underlining its claim to the disputed islands and triggering protests in Seoul. And recently the Japanese government took control of a lighthouse built by its nationalists on another set of disputed islands, which it calls the Senkaku, while China, which also claims them, calls them Diaoyu. China is sending ships to an area near the islands, looking for oil and gas, while Japan is thinking of doing the same, raising the scary prospect of a confrontation between their navies. Last November, Japan demanded and got an apology after a Chinese submarine was caught in its (undisputed) waters. In February, it was China’s turn to get rattled, as Japan joined America in making a statement that Taiwan (which China regards as a renegade province) was a mutual security concern. Were tensions over Taiwan to escalate, the issue would quickly dwarf that of school books and uninhabited islets.

Rise and fall

China and Japan have, of course, been rivals for the best part of a millennium. For much of that time, China had the upper hand. But from the mid-19th to the late 20th centuries it was in decline while Japan was in the ascendant. For the past three decades, since Deng Xiaoping began to convert China’s economy to market-led capitalism, China has been on the up again, whereas Japan has stumbled since the 1990s.

For all their rivalries, there are plenty of signs that Asia’s two great powers are edging closer together. Last year, China overtook America to become Japan’s biggest trading partner. Japan has been China’s biggest trading partner in three of the past four years. Moreover, both countries are working with neighbours to launch a broader and deeper East Asian Community. Most important of all, China and Japan, along with South Korea and Russia, have been willing collaborators in the American-led effort to persuade North Korea to relinquish its nuclear-weapons programme.

However, there has been no official visit to China by the Japanese prime minister, Junichiro Koizumi, since October 2001, and none by the Chinese president to Japan since 1998, when Jiang Zemin went. Overcoming the bitter memories of the 20th century’s wars and building a genuine partnership to ensure they are not repeated will require movement by both sides. Japan could withhold approval from school books that sanitise the awful truth about its wartime record; and it could offer more compensation to the victims of its past occupations. As for the Chinese, it would require a willingness to sanction a joint textbook commission in which historians would be free to examine the two countries’ past, a readiness to give up anti-Japanese propaganda, and a willingness to engage in serious negotiations about disputed waters. Only then might East Asia finally consign its past conflicts to the history books.


Ah, interesting times. It seems Japan still has to come to terms with its history, something it doesn't seem to apt to do if these textbooks are anything to go by. It seems Japan and China are having better relations, but this is quite a sticking point and seemingly has been for a while.

Whoha is offline Whoha
King
The TOC is supposed to be classified guys...
Dec 2001
time: 23:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 22:48
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

It is all just talk, their actions speak far louder then any words, but I am suprised to see the last paragraph acknowledge that.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 22:49 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I wouldn't be suprised to find out that history books in China and SK are similarly biased pieces of crap.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 22:54
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote:
I wouldn't be suprised to find out that history books in China and SK are similarly biased pieces of crap.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:05
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

China I can see . I have more faith in South Korea's textbooks. I'm not up on South Korean history, but I don't think they have anything quite like the Rape of Nanking to cover up.

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:09 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Koreans and Chinese didn't have the opportunity to commit atrocities against Japanese civilians in WW2. They can't whitewash history they didn't have in the first place.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:14 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
China I can see . I have more faith in South Korea's textbooks. I'm not up on South Korean history, but I don't think they have anything quite like the Rape of Nanking to cover up.


I bet there is nothing in SK textbooks about how the street merchants rip off poor American GIs.

Tingkai is offline Tingkai
Warlord
To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:17
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Imagine the uproar if a German textbook never mentioned the holocaust and instead just said some Jewish people died during WWII. That should put some perspective on why the Japanese whitewash of the Nanking massacre pisses off the Chinese so much.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:19
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Imagine the uproar if a German textbook never mentioned the holocaust and instead just said some Jewish people died during WWII. That should put some perspective on why the Japanese whitewash of the Nanking massacre pisses off the Chinese so much.


Exactly. This isn't something inconsequential. Germany has come to terms with its sordid past during WW2 a while back. Japan has never done so and treats some of the people involved in the atrocities (most of whom are dead) as war heros.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:22 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

They should be more concerned about the crap that their own govt does.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:26
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Koreans and Chinese didn't have the opportunity to commit atrocities against Japanese civilians in WW2. They can't whitewash history they didn't have in the first place.


It doesn't have to be against nationals of another country.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:28
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
They should be more concerned about the crap that their own govt does.


The government should be concered about the crap that their own government does?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:30 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


The government should be concered about the crap that their own government does?


Actually yeah. They like to throw a lot of stones, considering they live in glass houses.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:32
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Actually yeah. They like to throw a lot of stones, considering they live in glass houses.


So you'd like to have NO ONE critisize anyone else?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:34 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
So you'd like to have NO ONE critisize anyone else?


Change that to govts criticising each other to divert attention away from their own crimes and the answer is yes.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:36
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Change that to govts criticising each other to divert attention away from their own crimes and the answer is yes.


If the criticism is valid, then I don't think that's a bad thing. Then the country who is the target can point to the accuser's abuses. Countries very rarely point the finger at themselves. The best system is where we encourage everyone to tattle on everyone else .

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:38 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


If the criticism is valid, then I don't think that's a bad thing. Then the country who is the target can point to the accuser's abuses. Countries very rarely point the finger at themselves. The best system is where we encourage everyone to tattle on everyone else .


Who should the Chinese fear the most the Japanese or their own govt? What good is propaganda designed against the Japanese?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:38
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

Would a mod please fix the thread title?

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:43
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

quote:

If the criticism is valid, then I don't think that's a bad thing.


You don't see governments using foreign enemies as diversion from their own flaws as a bad thing?

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:48
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote:
Originally posted by Az
quote:

If the criticism is valid, then I don't think that's a bad thing.


You don't see governments using foreign enemies as diversion from their own flaws as a bad thing?


Not particularly. It's been happening since history began. As long as it is a free flow from both sides andt he criticism is valid, we can make it work for us.

quote:
Who should the Chinese fear the most the Japanese or their own govt? What good is propaganda designed against the Japanese?


Like the Communist government will even let that happen? Its best to let people from outside push the flaws of the Chinese government, because if you try, you're dead because not many are agreeing with you.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:50
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

quote:

Not particularly.

You're a funny little man, Imran.

quote:

It's been happening since history began.

Ooh, that's a winning argument.


quote:

As long as it is a free flow from both sides andt he criticism is valid, we can make it work for us.


I am not talking about "how to be an evil scheming machiavellian bastard and serve the interests of the empire". I am talking about right and wrong. You know, those outdated concepts.

Tingkai is offline Tingkai
Warlord
To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:35
  Old Post 08-04-2005 23:51
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious

What good is propaganda designed against the Japanese?


What propaganda against the Japanese?

The propaganda being spewed these days comes from Japan. The Japanese are teaching their children that they were the victims during WWII. Japanese children grow up to believe that the US forced Japan to fight and that the US was evil because the US dropped the bomb on the poor innocent Japanese who never did nothing to hurt anyone.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:35
  Old Post 09-04-2005 00:00
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Regarding the thread title, what else would one expect of Japanese history textbooks?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 09-04-2005 00:50 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

quote:
Originally posted by Az
I am not talking about "how to be an evil scheming machiavellian bastard and serve the interests of the empire". I am talking about right and wrong. You know, those outdated concepts.


Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 09-04-2005 00:52 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
What propaganda against the Japanese?

The propaganda being spewed these days comes from Japan. The Japanese are teaching their children that they were the victims during WWII. Japanese children grow up to believe that the US forced Japan to fight and that the US was evil because the US dropped the bomb on the poor innocent Japanese who never did nothing to hurt anyone.


Propaganda goes both ways and every nation does it. It doesn't make it good or moral.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 09-04-2005 00:55
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

quote:
Originally posted by Az
I am not talking about "how to be an evil scheming machiavellian bastard and serve the interests of the empire". I am talking about right and wrong. You know, those outdated concepts.


Right and wrong are outdated concepts . It always depends on your point of view. Oh wow... a country is talking about VALID abuses of another country, perhaps to hide the view from its own, that's sooo bad! Why should I care? As long as both countries are doing it, both countries' abuses are shown, and that's far better than if the countries were trying to look within themselves (and try harder to hide their abuses).

Ah, idealistic idiots who want to talk about 'right' and 'wrong' even though their connection to reality is tenuous at best. No wonder you never get anywhere .

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
  Old Post 09-04-2005 01:00
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Why should I care?


Because the alternate behaviour is the international equivalent of psychopathy, which may suit you just fine, I guess.

quote:
Ah, idealistic idiots who want to talk about 'right' and 'wrong' even though their connection to reality is tenuous at best. No wonder you never get anywhere .


Yeah, the theories of "right and wrong" sure failed in the large scheme of things.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 09-04-2005 01:14
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If you lived in the real world, you'd know that the way to do things is practically, not idealistically. With idealism, you get Bush's foriegn policy.

And 'right' and 'wrong' are highly subjective, so some people may believe that we are headed very wrongly and 'right' has failed as society gets more liberal (such as Ben, etc). It's a nice opiate of the masses though .

Lancer is offline Lancer
Emperor
Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:35
  Old Post 09-04-2005 01:16
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

During the Japanese occupation of the Philippines the Japs would randomly start hacking at passerby with their swords just to test the sharpness. Many Filipinas were raped, in fact today the Japanese advertise on local TV in my little town of Jagna on Bohol island for girls to become 'dancing girls' in Japan. The Japs fly them over, train them and put them in strip clubs where they are preasured into prostitution. The girls aren't forced to it as in WW2, except economicly they sometimes have little choice if the like to eat. I wanted to put an advertisement on the same TV chanel explaining what 'dancing girls' would end up doing, but people explained to me that the girls already know, they hate to do it, but they have little option.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:35
Question  Old Post 09-04-2005 01:16
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#30 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
If you lived in the real world, you'd know that the way to do things is practically, not idealistically. With idealism, you get Bush's foriegn policy.
Have you seen the light and realized that Neo-conservatism is bollocks?

 
Pages (13): [ 1   2   3   4     >> ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:35.
Apolyton Time is 00:35.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0669 seconds (91.25% PHP - 8.75% MySQL) with 30 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net