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Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 21:51
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I don't see this fetus of fascism falling apart in any favorable way, anyhow.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 21:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
I don't see this fetus of fascism falling apart in any favorable way, anyhow.

Do you mean the CCP or the protests?

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 21:54
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quote:
If the monster looks anything like the protests of today, you aren't going to like it, ya know.


The monster was created by the CCP and isn't going to be rehabilitated while they're still around. Unfortunately, it looks like things are going to have to get worse before they can get better.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 21:55
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I mean the PRC, in general. Unless it takes a turn for the better, we're going to see the rise of something very intimidating. VERY intimidating.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 22:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
The monster was created by the CCP and isn't going to be rehabilitated while they're still around.

I am not sure of that (this sentence is to be taken literally, it does not mean "you're completely wrong you idiot" )

The CCP boys are only interested in keeping their power. and they know that their regime is too weak to survive a widespread revolution/uprising.
There was a time where the Chinese regime found loyalty by force-feeding an ideology, and ruthlessly massacre anybody who disagreed. This time forunately belongs to the past, as the CCP has considerably mellowed out, and you can't really prop up the communist ideology when you are a blatant capitalist regime.
As such, the CCP's new form of keeping the people content is threefold: 1) feed them with economic growth, so that they're content with the outputs of the regime.
2) Keep them as apthetic toward the regime as possible, by isolating/offing activists, and letting no communication channel free of giving new ideas. OTOH, let them be obsessed about buying the latest cell phone.
3) Channel their discontent toward an enemy that is not the regime. The Japanese make a fantastic target. Look like the one party that cares for the glorious Chinese nation.

I think the CCP boys love #3 because they know growth won't be eternal, and many Chinese people will begin to question the party when it happens. #2 won't be enough to prevent the spread of discontent, since the general population will be more prone to want a political change (such is the enemy of political apathy). #3 may well save their arse.
Such a reasoning would indicate that the CCP will continue to promote protests unabated. However, they may understand the dangers that come from it, and that they'd benefit from using another strategy.

Indeed, the CCP's greatest hope is continued apathy from the general population. If the population becomes too active (like during protests), the regime might be destroyed as soon as the protesters turn against it. And unless the CCP is completely incompetent, it knows it can and will happen.
I think a much smarter strategy, for the CCP, would be to force other countries/negociate them into doing something symbolic that pleases Chinese nationalism. Meanwhile, the Chinese people are merely spectators of this, instead of taking an active part to it. This way, the Chinese won't take the habit of opening their mouth (a very bad thing as far as dictatorship is concerned), and the CCP would still benefit from its nationalistic demagogery.

I think the CCP has propped up the protests to scare the Japanese into submission. It has paid off on the short run, but it's really bad news for them on the long run.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 22:31
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quote:
I think the CCP has propped up the protests to scare the Japanese into submission. It has paid off on the short run, but it's really bad news for them on the long run.


I agree...

The "monster" I was talking about was the xenophobic nationalism that has been instilled in the youth of China by the current government. I don't see the CCP changing course on its anti-Japan rhetoric, for the reasons you mentioned, which is why I think the current regime will have to fall before the nationalist cancer afflicting China can be addressed.

Dr Strangelove is offline Dr Strangelove
King
USA
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 24-04-2005 23:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
As such, the CCP's new form of keeping the people content is threefold: 1) feed them with economic growth, so that they're content with the outputs of the regime.
2) Keep them as apthetic toward the regime as possible, by isolating/offing activists, and letting no communication channel free of giving new ideas. OTOH, let them be obsessed about buying the latest cell phone.
3) Channel their discontent toward an enemy that is not the regime. The Japanese make a fantastic target. Look like the one party that cares for the glorious Chinese nation.

I think the CCP boys love #3 because they know growth won't be eternal, and many Chinese people will begin to question the party when it happens. #2 won't be enough to prevent the spread of discontent, since the general population will be more prone to want a political change (such is the enemy of political apathy). #3 may well save their arse.
Such a reasoning would indicate that the CCP will continue to promote protests unabated. However, they may understand the dangers that come from it, and that they'd benefit from using another strategy.

Indeed, the CCP's greatest hope is continued apathy from the general population. If the population becomes too active (like during protests), the regime might be destroyed as soon as the protesters turn against it. And unless the CCP is completely incompetent, it knows it can and will happen.
I think a much smarter strategy, for the CCP, would be to force other countries/negociate them into doing something symbolic that pleases Chinese nationalism. Meanwhile, the Chinese people are merely spectators of this, instead of taking an active part to it. This way, the Chinese won't take the habit of opening their mouth (a very bad thing as far as dictatorship is concerned), and the CCP would still benefit from its nationalistic demagogery.

I think the CCP has propped up the protests to scare the Japanese into submission. It has paid off on the short run, but it's really bad news for them on the long run.


I agree. If the Japanese were really smart and willing to be realistic they would issue the blanket, sweeping mea culpa for the asian part of WW2 that their asian neighbors have been demanding for a long time and they would be more sensitive to their fellow asian's needs about what they allow to be published about WW2 in Japan. The Japanese should initiate some joint ventures with the Chinese in order to strengthen the bonds between the two countries and make using "#3" a less palatable political strategy for the CCP.

Sandman is offline Sandman
Prince
Sinister Penguin
Aug 2001
time: 05:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 00:12
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If the Chinese were really smart, they'd let Taiwan have its independence - thus pulling the rug out from under the feet of the alarmist Americans, and settle for economic supremacy of the region.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor


I'm actually surprised that the Chinese government didn't jump on the opportunity to silence the protests. By continuing to promote them, the CCP is really feeding the monster that will be its end


Exactly the point I have been making. The last time this happened, in 1919, the result was a revolution in favor of democracy.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 00:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
I think the CCP has propped up the protests to scare the Japanese into submission. It has paid off on the short run, but it's really bad news for them on the long run.


I agree...

The "monster" I was talking about was the xenophobic nationalism that has been instilled in the youth of China by the current government. I don't see the CCP changing course on its anti-Japan rhetoric, for the reasons you mentioned, which is why I think the current regime will have to fall before the nationalist cancer afflicting China can be addressed.


The fall of the CCP will do nothing to affect anti-Japanese feelings. What may do it, though, is reunion with Taiwan. The native peoples still remember the relatively good rule of the Japanese.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 00:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
If the Chinese were really smart, they'd let Taiwan have its independence - thus pulling the rug out from under the feet of the alarmist Americans, and settle for economic supremacy of the region.


If the CCP was really smart, it would allow free elections.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 00:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
The "monster" I was talking about was the xenophobic nationalism that has been instilled in the youth of China by the current government. I don't see the CCP changing course on its anti-Japan rhetoric, for the reasons you mentioned, which is why I think the current regime will have to fall before the nationalist cancer afflicting China can be addressed.


The CCP's tactic of whipping mobs into a nationalist frenzy isn't just confined to the Japanese. Do you remember how the CCP did the exact same thing during the Spy plane incident? The US plane was in international air space and the Chinese pilots tried to play chicken to scare the Americans off. Usually they'd pull up at the last minute while the larger American plane would just keep flying straight only that time the Chinese fighter didn't pull up in time and that caused the two planes to collide. The CCP, predictable as always, arranged for mobs to throw rocks at the US embassy and said they wanted the US (!!!!) to apologize for the crash.

Similiar tactics were used during the Kosovo war and the Soviet/Chinese border war in the early 80's and the Chinese/Vietnamese border war of the late 70's, etc... It is a standard tactic of the Chinese communist party and is nothing new.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
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Sep 2001
time: 21:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 00:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned

If the CCP was really smart, it would allow free elections.


Maybe you missed the part about the CCP wanting to stay in power. Free elections aren't a good way for a one party state to monopolize power.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 01:01
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quote:

Indeed, the CCP's greatest hope is continued apathy from the general population. If the population becomes too active (like during protests), the regime might be destroyed as soon as the protesters turn against it. And unless the CCP is completely incompetent, it knows it can and will happen.


People power only works against regimes who are afraid to kill masses of people. The CCP is willing to kill thousands, even millions, to stay in power. People power is useless against them unless the people are armed.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 01:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
The CCP is willing to kill thousands, even millions, to stay in power. People power is useless against them unless the people are armed.

Had you told me that only one decade ago, I'd have agreed with you. But I think things have changed considerably. I mean, have you seen how half-assed (by Mao's or even Deng's standards) they deal with dissent? Exile and jail, but no large-scale massacres anymore.

I seriously don't think they are really able nor really willing to exterminate their population if a revolution happens.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 01:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin


Maybe you missed the part about the CCP wanting to stay in power. Free elections aren't a good way for a one party state to monopolize power.


Oerdin, maybe. But right now, the CCP is popular. It will become unpopular if and when they begin again to crack down on freedom of speech. Then, not only will they not win an election if called, they will be overthrown and banned as the party was in Russia.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 01:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin


People power only works against regimes who are afraid to kill masses of people. The CCP is willing to kill thousands, even millions, to stay in power. People power is useless against them unless the people are armed.


Really?

I think the current people in power are not as wildly insane as Mao.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 01:26
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And not only that, I sincerely doubt the army would be willing to kill their own people. They know if they try, the troops will muntiny.

I think these anti-Japanese protests will end in democracy just like they did after 1919.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 01:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor

Had you told me that only one decade ago, I'd have agreed with you. But I think things have changed considerably. I mean, have you seen how half-assed (by Mao's or even Deng's standards) they deal with dissent? Exile and jail, but no large-scale massacres anymore.

I seriously don't think they are really able nor really willing to exterminate their population if a revolution happens.


I seem to recall a large scale massacre just 15 years ago. They didn't even bother to stop the TV cameras at first because they wanted everyone to know what happens to "counter revolutionaries".

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
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  Old Post 25-04-2005 01:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin


I seem to recall a large scale massacre just 15 years ago. They didn't even bother to stop the TV cameras at first because they wanted everyone to know what happens to "counter revolutionaries".


I was under the impression that Chinese TV did not broadcast the attack.

But, even so, I am with Spiffor. The farther Mao and his criminal crew are in the past, the greater the likelihood for democracy.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 03:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
I seem to recall a large scale massacre just 15 years ago. They didn't even bother to stop the TV cameras at first because they wanted everyone to know what happens to "counter revolutionaries".

Err, yes it was my frame of reference. I think things have largely changed since then.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 25-04-2005 05:16
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Ned, local news didn't play it after the first intial broadcasts but they didn't kick out the foreign journalists until after much of the intial massacre had been filmed.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 25-04-2005 06:17
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Oerdin, however I half recall that CNN was saying that the Chinese people were not seeing what was going on. That is more important that allowing the rest of the world to see.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
Deity
Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 11:37 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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An Australian cartoonist's view of Chinese government hypocrisy.

Attachment: cartoonweds20_gallery__550x304,0.jpg
This has been downloaded 31 time(s).

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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May 1999
time: 13:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 11:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Maybe you missed the part about the CCP wanting to stay in power. Free elections aren't a good way for a one party state to monopolize power.


Try Singapore.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
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  Old Post 25-04-2005 11:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Koizumi must know that nothing he can say or do will ever placate the Chinese.


That's so wrong you can't even be more wrong.

Barring all cabinet members and politicans to worship war criminals is a good start.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 12:06
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quote:
The CCP's tactic of whipping mobs into a nationalist frenzy isn't just confined to the Japanese.


I never said it was. "Xenophobic nationalism" affects more than just the Japanese.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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May 1999
time: 13:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 12:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
It looks like UR is pwned again.


I reckon a strawman is easy to own, even by people who are completely ignorant of Chinese history, culture, and just about everything.

quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programm...ent/4473415.stm


That man is such an authority. For starters, I would say Mr John King Fairbank would disagree with him on the Great Leap Forward.

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 19:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
That man is such an authority. For starters, I would say Mr John King Fairbank would disagree with him on the Great Leap Forward.


1) We've already discussed the deciet and propaganda in Chinese textbooks, including testimony of Chinese history teachers lamenting the mistruths they are forced to teach. You're response was to deny that an institute mentioned ever existed. I provided clear indisputable evidence of its existence, you responded by conceding that it did exist but that it was disbanded before 2000. I then demonstrated clearly that you were wrong and that it still exists, and you never responded. I'm still wondering why you were so adamantly fighting so hard for something that was either a blatant lie or was something you didn't know enough about to make such ridiculous claims. Hence my doubt on most of the so called 'facts' and assumptions you post.

2) You seem to call upon Fairbank a lot, but don't provide any citations from him to prove your points.

3) One man's book is not the end all of Chinese history, just as one Japanese book isn't for their history.

4) Your response here is a blatant strawman. Fairbank has nothing to do with the discussion in question. Or at least, not in the manner you are invoking him.

Please feel free to respond with one blithe line for each point.

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:35
  Old Post 25-04-2005 19:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor

Err, yes it was my frame of reference. I think things have largely changed since then.


Economically, yes. Politically, no. In fact, I'd say it's a bit worse.

 
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