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Dr Strangelove is offline Dr Strangelove
King
USA
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 16:46
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT


That's the best you can do?

Earliest reference to the word "Taxachusetts" that I can quickly dig up is from 1978 (before Reagan was Pres, btw): An article in Land and Liberty by Edith S. Capon.


As I said above, by 1977 the term was commonly used throughout New Hampshire. Your source may not have included William Loeb's editorials. Sadly I can't recall the name of his newspaper.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 16:55
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quote:
Originally posted by TCO


Did you get some TJ weed or something? Look at the article:

High tax:
Maine 13.00% - BLUE
New York 12.00% -BLUE
Hawaii 11.50% - BLUE
Rhode Island 11.40% - BLUE
Wisconsin 11.40% - BLUE

Bottom 5 tax heavy states:

Alaska 6.40% -RED
New Hampshire 7.40% -BLUE
Delaware 8.00% - BLUE
Tennessee 8.30% - RED
Alabama 8.70% - RED


I took top five top mean the best states (meaning lowest taxes) while the bottom five (meaning highest taxes). Now that I look again it seems I had it backwards.

Patroklos is offline Patroklos
Warlord
Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 17:59
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I think it works more like one party is out to exempt the the poor from social responsiblility while forcing the better off to carry the poor on their backs.

This creates more problems than it solves. I don't think it actually solves any.

gunkulator is offline gunkulator
Prince

Feb 2003
time: 00:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 20:14
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A Granite Stater (from New Hampshire) here to explain how we ended up with the 2nd lowest tax burden - and in the Northeast to boot! NH probably has the most unusual state government.

All terms of office (house, senate, gov) are 2 years and the turnover can be dizzying. The NH state house has 400 members which makes it the world's second largest elected body, after the US House. I live in a town of 6000 people and I personally know both of my representatives.

The legislature only meets a couple months out of the year and budgets are only done every two years. For their troubles, our legislators are paid the whopping sum of $100 per year so pretty much all of them have another job. Getting 400 people to agree on anything is next to impossible so relatively few laws are passed. Currently, the governor is a Democrat while the legislature is mostly Republican and that only slows the gears further.

The governor's office is weakened not just by the short 2 year term, but also with an elected Executive Council. The Council has veto power over appointments and other facets of executive operations. There is no Lt. Gov.

NH has a constitutional prohibition against unfunded mandates. That means the state is not allowed to mandate ANYTHING unless it provides the funds to pay for it. NH has neither a state income tax nor a state sales tax so there just aren't a lot of funds to go making new laws with.

The vast majority of taxes raised in NH are local property taxes. Except for a handful of cities, NH towns are run via Town Meeting, i.e. direct democracy. Once a year, the citizens gather to debate anything and everything regarding town business. Votes are made and the tax rate for the year is known then and there. A group of Selectmen are elected as executives to collect and spend the money but they are unable to raise additional revenue. Only the whole town voting has that power.

Most towns have their share of old curmudgeons with nothing better to do than to scrutinize every single line item on the budget. They all show up at the Town Meeting and biatch and moan about every freakin' pencil that the town buys. Waste, fraud, abuse, cronyism, nepotism and the like are much harder to hide on the local level.

Now the bad news: There are large disparities between rich towns and poor towns. Since most money comes from local sources, poor towns have to make do with less. Also, property taxes are very high which makes it difficult for people on a fixed income to keep their homes. They are the source from which most of the old curmudgeons come from. Also, we have our share of Libertarians, Free Staters and other extreme groups who feel that even our limited state government is still too much government. I guess that's what you get when the state motto is "Live Free or Die".

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 20:23
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Man, New Hampshire is f*cked up.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 21:37
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New Hampshire . Wow... that's a very interesting way to run the government. I love the large legislature size and law against unfunded mandates.

quote:
main difference is one party is inclined to help wealthy people and the other party is inclined to help common citizens.


The sad thing is you actually believe this (if I was being catty, I guess I could have said I didn't know which party was which, though knowing your political persuasion, I could guess, though Ned could say exactly the same thing and mean something entirely different).

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
Emperor
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 21:39
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NH

quote:
Western states often have to support a lot of road miles per capita for instance, while suffering from lower utilization rates for schools etc.


The Feds own much of the west so these states get more in federal handouts too. I'm surprised New Mexico has lower rates than Arizona, Wyoming and Idaho, all of which have reputations for being "conservative". Maybe Gary Johnson, a more libertarianesque guv, was able to get lowered rates when he was in office.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 22:04 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by gunkulator
The NH state house has 400 members which makes it the world's second largest elected body


House of Commons, UK

Lok Sabha, India

Starchild is offline Starchild
Emperor
a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 22:05
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Didn't Outbreak teach us anything? World = continental USA

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 22:06 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Both of those are also larger than the US House of Representatives, BTW

gunkulator is offline gunkulator
Prince

Feb 2003
time: 00:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 22:09
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. My bad. Meant to say nation instead of world. I was reading a news article on the World Champion Boston RedSox at the time - you know, the team that won the World Series.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 22:11 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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AFAIK, unless there's a similarly silly-sized regional government somewhere else, NH makes it to number 6, though

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 22:17 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Maybe 9. Forgot about Japan, Italy and Poland

UK House of Commons seems to be the top, though, at 659 members.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 22:21 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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I give up. Completely forgot about Russia and South America.

Colon is offline Colon
Emperor
Antwerp, Colon's Chocolate Canard Country
Jan 1970
time: 06:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 23:23
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The European Parliament has over 700 members.

TCO is offline TCO
Emperor
Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 23:29
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sleep, kitty...

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:17
  Old Post 12-04-2005 23:29
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Gunkulator:

Why are there no sales or income taxes, though? I really like your direct democracy approach, however the fact that the rural towns have no funding whatsoever from the cities kinda sucks.

gunkulator is offline gunkulator
Prince

Feb 2003
time: 00:17
  Old Post 13-04-2005 01:23
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Az:

No state sales or income tax in NH because none has ever been voted in. There hasn't even been a serious debate about enacting one either.

To our south is the Colossus that is Massachusetts which is Big Government personified. Almost every week a new story surfaces how state tax money is being wasted there. You've probably heard of the Big Dig which by now should be the poster child for Waste, Fraud and Abuse. NH citizens are distrustful of state government.

Direct democracy has its ups and downs. On the upside, everyone has a right to speak their mind at the Town Meeting and with enough signatures, petitions can be brought by anyone before the entire town for a vote. There's very little place to hide waste because somebody will find it. Even our town employees have their individual salaries and the cost of their benefits published in the town's annual report.

On the downside is the obvious inefficency of hundreds of adults debating, amending and clarifying every issue. In my town this year, we spent an hour discussing what option packages to include in the F-350 pickup truck that was being voted on. Same with the new police cruiser. Yeesh.

Also, Town Meetings are not responsive to emergencies. Occasionally, my town burns through the snow removal budget and an emergency meeting has to be called for more money. You can't just call a meeting the next day. A few weeks notice is required so that all citizens have a chance to attend.

The lack of funding for poor towns is an issue. The state does collect taxes from hotels, restaurants and from the lottery. Much of that is given back to the poorer towns. As always, poor towns tend to be smaller towns so their collective voting power is small.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:17
  Old Post 13-04-2005 01:27
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I think that's why you have an elected executive, and have the legislature be direct, IMO.

WRT boston, and the big dig, you'll see, it WILL pay off.

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
King

Donate to the Red Cross

Sep 2002
time: 23:17
  Old Post 13-04-2005 02:28
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Sure NH doesn't have but the 10th or 20th largest legislative assembly, but consider the size of the population it represents (1.3 million)--400 representatives per 1.3 million equals 3250 people per representator. India's 1.1 billion people have to fight over 545 representatives, which is about 2 million people (one and a half New Hampshires) per elected man or woman.

Patroklos is offline Patroklos
Warlord
Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:17
  Old Post 13-04-2005 03:54
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Never thought about it that way...

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:17
  Old Post 13-04-2005 04:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

The sad thing is you actually believe this (if I was being catty, I guess I could have said I didn't know which party was which, though knowing your political persuasion, I could guess, though Ned could say exactly the same thing and mean something entirely different).


It's simply true Imran. Check which legislation in the last 20 years which is pro-consumer and the odds are great it was pushed by Democrats while looking at which legislation was anti-consumer and the odds are good it was pushed by Republicans. That's just the way it works. One party helps business and the other helps people.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
  Old Post 13-04-2005 05:26
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And of course you are the final arbiter of what is 'pro-consumer' and 'anti-consumer' right?

Which party was more behind NAFTA? Clinton had just about all the Republicans, but had to beg and plead to get Democrat votes. That's one of the most pro-consumer bills (free trade = lower prices) to pass Congress in the last 20 years, and the Republicans were the ones pushing for it.

And I'm sure someone like Ned can point to anti-abortion and pro sex eduation and stuff like that and say the Dems are the party of the special interest while the Reps are the party that represents the values of the people.

Your partisanship is crappy

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:17
  Old Post 13-04-2005 05:35
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We're talking about averages here. People who don't understand averages point to exceptions and claim that proves the averages are wrong, but, averages are just generalizations which are mostly true. No one claimed that one party ALWAYS did one thing or another what was said was that one party mostly helps business elites while the other party mostly helps the common man. That's just the truth.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
  Old Post 13-04-2005 06:48
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quote:
what was said was that one party mostly helps business elites while the other party mostly helps the common man. That's just the truth.


No, that's just your opinion. Please don't confuse that with the facts.

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:17
  Old Post 13-04-2005 06:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And of course you are the final arbiter of what is 'pro-consumer' and 'anti-consumer' right?

Which party was more behind NAFTA? Clinton had just about all the Republicans, but had to beg and plead to get Democrat votes. That's one of the most pro-consumer bills (free trade = lower prices)...


Imran, Imran.

It's not pro-consumer unless it's anti-business. Haven't you figured that one out yet?

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
  Old Post 13-04-2005 07:02
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Sorry, it's been a while since I read the Democrat playbook

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:17
  Old Post 13-04-2005 07:25
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Then how would you generalize the differences between the parties? You can't say they're exactly the same. It's clear one is pro-business while the other leans towards the common man. That is the main philosophical difference in a nut shell. You know, I know, JohnT knows it.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
  Old Post 13-04-2005 07:30
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One is aligned with the Christian Right and is for economic liberalization. The other is aligned with the Unions and is for greater governmental control.

Neither is for the people. Neither is for the common man.

(and if you think the Unions are 'for the people', you are seriously deluded).

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:17
  Old Post 13-04-2005 07:34
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The similiarities are striking. Why for unions its all about increasing their membership. Demonrats are all about increasing their membership.

The obvious answer make as many people 'common' as possible to increase membership.

Yay Demonrats the party that is best served when people are victims (or percieved victims) of teh man.

 
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