13-04-2005 07:35									#91
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I agree with Imran :shock: (although his statement is definitely a simplification, but neither is for the people or common man...)

Jon Miller

	13-04-2005 07:39									#92
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quote: although his statement is definitely a simplification

Well, of course, but the point is that neither is for the people. NO political party, no matter how Populist or Communist a party is, they are for themselves and not for the 'common man'. It's the corrolary to the all politicians are scum theory.

	13-04-2005 07:43									#93
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Yup. It comes down to survival and promotion of the group entity ultimately outweigh and supplant the original intended goals of the group.

I can't think of a single instance where this wasn't the case be it orgaized religion, political parties, communism, unions, etc.

	13-04-2005 08:02									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui One is aligned with the Christian Right and is for economic liberalization. The other is aligned with the Unions and is for greater governmental control. Neither is for the people. Neither is for the common man. (and if you think the Unions are 'for the people', you are seriously deluded).

Let's see...unions obtained 40 hour work weeks, health and safety standards, pensions, healthcare, vacations with pay, overtime pay, the family leave act -- yep, sounds like they don't care a thing about common people.

	13-04-2005 08:10									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Let's see...unions obtained 40 hour work weeks, health and safety standards, pensions, healthcare, vacations with pay, overtime pay, the family leave act -- yep, sounds like they don't care a thing about common people.

Unions also steal from pension plans, take dues from ordinary members and don't listen to them in spending it, being fronts for the mob, being more crooked than a San Francisco townhouse, preventing meaningful reform to protect their own asses (ie, Teachers Unions) ... etc, etc. Unions also, almost to a tee, oppose free trade, which benefits the common man more than most other things.

Sorry, bub. Unions aren't for the common man. I'd even say corporations are more for the common man these days, especially when you take the Teachers' Unions into account.

	13-04-2005 11:10									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Unions also steal from pension plans

That's right, there were a couple of scandals forty or fifty years ago, weren't there. I compliment you on your great memory.

quote: , take dues from ordinary members and don't listen to them in spending it,

Sorry, you're wrong. Unions need a vote before they can spend money.

quote: being fronts for the mob, being more crooked than a San Francisco townhouse,

I'm trying to figure how how the Teachers' Union is a front for the mob. Maybe the smuggle pencils across the borders?

quote: preventing meaningful reform to protect their own asses (ie, Teachers Unions) ... etc, etc.

Yeah, I hear people all the time complaining about those blasted overpaid school teachers. BTW: "reform" of what?!? Teachers are some of the hardest working, most underpaid professions around.

quote: Unions also, almost to a tee, oppose free trade, which benefits the common man more than most other things.

Laying of American in order to export their jobs to countries like Haiti with child labor or to China with prison labor benefits the common man...how again?

quote: Sorry, bub. Unions aren't for the common man. I'd even say corporations are more for the common man these days

Remind me again of how the common man benefitted from Enron, Worldcom, Adelphia, Lincoln Savings & Loan, etc.?

	13-04-2005 13:09									#97
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quote: Hawaii 11.50%

They fail to mention that the cost of living here only adds to the burden. High taxes, high COL.....ah, it might be paradise but it's expensive as a mofo to live here.

No wonder there's an exodus of Hawaii-born ppl moving to the continent.....I wanna move to California or Indiana. (Surf or Family).

	13-04-2005 13:15									#98
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Ah I thought you were talking about a _burden_ here...

	13-04-2005 13:24									#99
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shoosh..no one needs to know.

	13-04-2005 15:57									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Let's see...unions obtained 40 hour work weeks, health and safety standards, pensions, healthcare, vacations with pay, overtime pay, the family leave act -- yep, sounds like they don't care a thing about common people.

I thought that the 40 hour work week, safety standards, overtime etc. were brought about by the progressive movement a century ago. And I notice that you didn't mention that unions have destroyed almost every industry where they were prevalent, except the government where outsourcing is verbotten.

	13-04-2005 16:01									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Yeah, I hear people all the time complaining about those blasted overpaid school teachers. BTW: "reform" of what?!? Teachers are some of the hardest working, most underpaid professions around.

They aren't overpaid if you look at the raw material (education majors are often the stupidest on a given campus) or the result of their labor (U.S. pays the most for education and gets mediocre to poor results from it).

	13-04-2005 16:06									#102
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I love the lengths some people will go to avoid admiting the obvious. Republicans favor big business and Democrats favor the small guy.

	13-04-2005 17:05									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander They aren't overpaid if you look at the raw material (education majors are often the stupidest on a given campus) or the result of their labor (U.S. pays the most for education and gets mediocre to poor results from it).

Education is a major?

Teaching sucks hard. I wouldn't do it for twice the money, but if you cut teachers pay any further education is going to be even more ****ed up.

	13-04-2005 17:22									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Democrats favor the small guy.

So do Communists

	13-04-2005 19:15									#105
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Whereas Fascists....

	13-04-2005 19:17									#106
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...favor football

	13-04-2005 19:19									#107
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One might wonder what's up with Italy these days....

	13-04-2005 19:23									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa One might wonder what's up with Italy these days....

Berlusconi is in power ?

	13-04-2005 19:33									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Then how would you generalize the differences between the parties? You can't say they're exactly the same. It's clear one is pro-business while the other leans towards the common man. That is the main philosophical difference in a nut shell. You know, I know, JohnT knows it.

No, it's one of the perceived philosophical differences between the two parties. Imran knows it, I know it, Che knows it, Ming knows it, but you apparently don't.

	13-04-2005 19:36									#110
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Imran knows it, I know it, Che knows it, Ming knows it, but you apparently don't.

Mmm, you could start up a band, call yourselves 'The True Perceivers'.

Who gets to be grouchy lead guitarist who attacks the amps ?

	13-04-2005 19:59									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan They fail to mention that the cost of living here only adds to the burden. High taxes, high COL.....ah, it might be paradise but it's expensive as a mofo to live here.

You forget to mention that, to balance out the high cost of living, Hawaiian employers pay lower salaries.

	13-04-2005 20:46									#112
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Republicans are for big business, but so are Democrats.

	13-04-2005 20:49									#113
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and thus the problem with the current state of politics.

	13-04-2005 20:51									#114
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Neither party favors the little man, both favor thier client special intrest groups over the common person. The Democrats used to be for the little man to some extent when the unions were powerful, but that ended when the DLC took control of the party and turned it into Republican-lite.

	13-04-2005 21:12									#115
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Comrade Don Camillo!

	13-04-2005 21:23									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Then how would you generalize the differences between the parties?

The GOP wants to deregulate business and regulate personal behavior.

The DP wants to regulate business and deregulate personal behavior.

Both like handing money to big business.

	13-04-2005 21:25									#117
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Republicans are for big business, but so are Democrats.

	13-04-2005 21:45									#118
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quote: That's right, there were a couple of scandals forty or fifty years ago, weren't there. I compliment you on your great memory.

Um no. There are unions that steal pension money to this day. The government just brough suit agains the IUIIW for doing that to their workers.

quote: Unions need a vote before they can spend money.

And when the big say to vote one way... it gets done. You think Hoffa with the Teamsters didn't get his way when he wanted? Come on!

quote: I'm trying to figure how how the Teachers' Union is a front for the mob.

Ever hear of the Teamsters?

quote: Yeah, I hear people all the time complaining about those blasted overpaid school teachers. BTW: "reform" of what?!? Teachers are some of the hardest working, most underpaid professions around.

Any reform! Such as firing bad teachers. Test teachers so they know what they are teaching. The states that have given teachers the same test they give kids find that the kids do better on them! How is that acceptable? Tenure has ruined education in this country and the Teachers Union won't give it up.

We spend how much for education? And we get less than proper value.

quote: Laying of American in order to export their jobs to countries like Haiti with child labor or to China with prison labor benefits the common man...how again?

The consumer gets cheaper goods and better goods. Tariffs eventually destroyed cities like Flint and Detroit, when people were willing to pay thousands more for better cars. The American auto industry is just recovering. Because of tariffs we got deathtraps like the Ford Pinto.

quote: Remind me again of how the common man benefitted from Enron, Worldcom, Adelphia, Lincoln Savings & Loan, etc.?

Remind me how they benefit from the Teachers' Unions blocking any reform of the system so that their kids don't get the education they deserve? Remind me how they benefit from peace of **** cars protected by high tariffs? Remind me how they benefit from jacking up the prices of better foriegn goods?

	13-04-2005 21:48									#119
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The problem isn't the US' education system; it's that Americans are stupid and lazy.

	13-04-2005 22:34									#120
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Just because the teacher's unions are scummy, doesn't mean all unions are bad, BAM.