15-04-2005 20:32									#31
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh In the "olden days" most files were stored on various individual's own web sites. Nowadays, we have tended to use the forums themselves for storage, even for scenario files.

This is very much what I've been thinking. Not so much as a result of this thing, but also with the earlier discussion we were having. There used to be a lot of Civ2 websites. Just about every scenario designer (or other Civ2 enthusiast) seemed to have one. But now, there are hardly any left. Everyone just sticks to these forums. Most of the Civ2 websites that are still around are maintained by "veterans". Only Catfish seems to be the exception.

I don't really think the forum is the right place to use as permanent storage like the graphics showcase and scenario release threads are. The forum is great to quickly and easily post new stuff and get some comments and feedback, though.

I think it would be a better idea to use the SLeague website rather than make sticky threads for everything in the forum. The only problem there is that St Leo isn't always the most reliable webmaster. Then again, he is doing it on his own.

But whichever way we're gonna organize this stuff, we'll be needing some dedicated editors.

quote: Let's think the unthinkable. What would we do if Apolyton went under? Or their servers were destroyed in a fire or earthquake? (...)

I don't think we have to get quite that desperate yet. But it would be very handy to have our own backup in the form of websites.

quote: Originally posted by St Leo In fact, at this point it might be a good idea to merge Creation with PBEM. I'll raise the idea once the restoration is finished.

I think the Test of Time forum is more in need of a merger. I wouldn't merge it all into Creation though. Some threads would be more appropriate in the General or Strategy forums.

quote: Originally posted by biru biru Maybe threads for cites, icons, sounds? Might make surfing for these items easier for scenario builders.

But the problem there is that we'd get way too many topped threads like that. The forum would become our files database, and I don't think that's a good idea (as I said above).

Couldn't we make a submission thread or something? A thread where everyone can post his graphics etc. The attachment would then be uploaded to the Scenario League website, added to its downloads and the post subsequently removed from the submission thread.

	15-04-2005 20:32									#32
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I appreciate the detailed answer from Locutus. It's important for newer members of the community to realize that SL was formed independently of Apolyton and has CHOSEN to be based here. There have been discussions in the (distant) past about moving elsewhere, but Apolyton has, as Locutus says, always offered the best deal. I find this event a bit disturbing, but I'm happy to wait until the restoration work is done.

As far as the discussions about reorganizing the site, I think there's more than just the graphics threads to talk about. First, there's already too much emphasis on units. What about terrain, cities, icons and people? Sci-fi and fantasy?

Can we not have separate web pages that the better graphics can be transferred to? That would save us scrolling through pages and pages of forums to find something. Forum based storage is an organizational nighmare.

Also how do we want to handle storage and access to completed scenarios? And reviews? What else?

	15-04-2005 21:46									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus ..only some of the data of the past 3 weeks has been lost. That's all, everything else will be restored no problem, it will just take a while to sort things out (exactly because this is the first time ever that this has happened).

Reassuring news if that is the case; I think we can live with the loss of 3 weeks-worth of posts. I was expecting a worse hit than that.

	15-04-2005 21:51									#34
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Well, I admit I never saw this coming, as naive as that sounds. I just kind of thought all was well in Apolyton-land, and am somewhat shocked. But, my close friend reminds me that the Internet is a pretty volatile place. I'm just hoping as much as possible can be restored.

	15-04-2005 22:01									#35
	Remove this text

I would like to suggest a thread where each creator has a post which they update often, containing download links to all of their scenarios.

	15-04-2005 22:13									#36
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I'll throw in my 2-p's worth regarding the graphics threads as it appears to be a major consideration with regard to proposed changes to the SLeague.

First off, the graphics threads were too large / unwieldy / full of spam to be of any practical use for scenario designers. In part this was a result of the general obsession with unit icons that had already been noted by Mercator, Andrew Livings and Techumseh; if those of us who posted icons put as much effort into scenario creation we'd have dozens of scenarios to play. I guess we should consider what the thread's primary purpose is here: to give scenario designers a useful and easily referenced resource, rather than an end to themselves.

My suggestion is to scrap the old threads, if they haven't already been lost. Introduce Curt's 'sub-thread by period/genre' under a master thread, if that's possible. I'd impose the following restrictions on posting graphics: accumulate a collection of the damn things, perhaps a minimum of 10 or 20, rather than posting individual icons 20 times. Don't spam the effing thread. Don't post minor changes to other icons. Think whether anyone will actually use the stuff you're posting. Cut out the 20 congratulatory text posts that seem to accompany each post with a graphics attachment. And perhaps above all, view the graphics threads for what they are (or should be): a resourse for scenario creation rather than an end in themselves.

If there is one master graphics thread alongside topped threads concerning advice for general scenario design, new discoveries, scenario review, tech-tree help, events help (c.f. Yoshi's thread at CivFan) etc, perhaps this will restore parity between the graphics and the mechanics of scenario design which has rightly been identified as a flaw in the SLeague by Tech, APL, Merc et al.

	15-04-2005 22:42									#37
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh I appreciate the detailed answer from Locutus. It's important for newer members of the community to realize that SL was formed independently of Apolyton and has CHOSEN to be based here. There have been discussions in the (distant) past about moving elsewhere, but Apolyton has, as Locutus says, always offered the best deal. I find this event a bit disturbing, but I'm happy to wait until the restoration work is done.

Also, it should be noted that historically Civ2 Creation and Scenario League were separate forums that merged for strategic reasons. There was some brouhaha over sovereignity and Hosted Site status.

quote: As far as the discussions about reorganizing the site, I think there's more than just the graphics threads to talk about. First, there's already too much emphasis on units. What about terrain, cities, icons and people? Sci-fi and fantasy?

I am against splitting sci-fi and fantasy.

Ancient/Pre-Steam Unit Graphics
Industrial Unit Graphics
WW2 Unit Graphics
Modern Unit Graphics
SciFi/Fantasy Unit Graphics
City Graphics Showcase
Other Graphics Showcase

quote: Can we not have separate web pages that the better graphics can be transferred to?

Sure. That's why I've tried to badger people into making compilations of their graphics. Graphic-by-graphic webpages are a pain.

quote: That would save us scrolling through pages and pages of forums to find something. Forum based storage is an organizational nighmare.

True, but it does provide for easy commenting and a centralized community. There's a reason why Freeciv graphics stuff is being done here rather than at, say, the Freeciv.org Wiki.

quote: Also how do we want to handle storage and access to completed scenarios? And reviews? What else?

We still have a website, you know.

I am fine with using stickied threads for completed scenarios and reviews. Remember that mods can edit other people's posts, which is of some utility in directory threads.

	15-04-2005 23:04									#38
	Increase Your PM Length

a while ago after fairline had a computer crash, there was talk about an ftp bombshelter, perhaps that could be implimented by someone,

	15-04-2005 23:20									#39
	Got spare money?

Harry Tuttle did find something...

	15-04-2005 23:25									#40
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by fairline I'll throw in my 2-p's worth regarding the graphics threads as it appears to be a major consideration with regard to proposed changes to the SLeague. First off, the graphics threads were too large / unwieldy / full of spam to be of any practical use for scenario designers. In part this was a result of the general obsession with unit icons that had already been noted by Mercator, Andrew Livings and Techumseh; if those of us who posted icons put as much effort into scenario creation we'd have dozens of scenarios to play. I guess we should consider what the thread's primary purpose is here: to give scenario designers a useful and easily referenced resource, rather than an end to themselves. My suggestion is to scrap the old threads, if they haven't already been lost. Introduce Curt's 'sub-thread by period/genre' under a master thread, if that's possible. I'd impose the following restrictions on posting graphics: accumulate a collection of the damn things, perhaps a minimum of 10 or 20, rather than posting individual icons 20 times. Don't spam the effing thread. Don't post minor changes to other icons. Think whether anyone will actually use the stuff you're posting. Cut out the 20 congratulatory text posts that seem to accompany each post with a graphics attachment. And perhaps above all, view the graphics threads for what they are (or should be): a resourse for scenario creation rather than an end in themselves. If there is one master graphics thread alongside topped threads concerning advice for general scenario design, new discoveries, scenario review, tech-tree help, events help (c.f. Yoshi's thread at CivFan) etc, perhaps this will restore parity between the graphics and the mechanics of scenario design which has rightly been identified as a flaw in the SLeague by Tech, APL, Merc et al.

I'll buy that for a dollar!

I think a master thread is the way to go, somewhat similar to
the tips thread that was up just before the fall of castle CIV!

	16-04-2005 00:05									#41
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quote: Originally posted by fairline one master graphics thread

We'll give that a try. Restoring balance could be healthy, but I don't want to smother graphics activity either.

	16-04-2005 04:18									#42
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Let's take this opportunity to brainstorm about how we'd like SL to look. What do we want it to do for us, whether we're a designer, a player, a history buff, or a graphic artist?

In addition to being the place to discuss and communicate, the forums have become a disorganized (and apparently vulnerable) place to store graphics and scenarios. Scattered information relating to reviews and tips are posted on the forums as well. The problem is, they are an inefficient and inaccessable resource for scenario designers, experienced or not.

Don't get me wrong. The SL forum is the heart of our community, and as Harry T recently pointed out, we are undergoing a renaissance at SL. But the forum is doing too many things it isn't designed for.

I suggest a new web site for SL, with the idea that it's designed as the gateway to the forum, rather than the other way around. Move new scenarios and graphics, as well as tips, reviews and contests onto their own pages. Provide links to the SL forum and other web resources.

Other ideas?

	16-04-2005 05:03									#43
	Inflate your Upload Space

I agree completely...

There are just a few problems. Ideally I'd like to see the site redesigned from the ground up, clearly organized and consistent, with no left-overs from past designs. But that's a hell of a lot of work. Even if we're going with the current site there will be much to do.

In fact, that's pretty much the problem I'm running into with my own website as well. Things are all over the place. And that's just about organizing existing data. There's also so much new stuff I have to add.

At the moment, St Leo is the only one working on the SL website, AFAIK. He can't possibly do this on his own.

That's also why we've been mostly sticking to the forums. It's much easier to maintain. But it can also quickly become a muddled mess.

	16-04-2005 05:22									#44
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

We are all good at making tech trees in CIV2 - Let's put that
design rationale to work and make some ingenius forum structures!

	16-04-2005 05:32									#45
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Well here's my idea, again linked to the SL site: personal web pages to form the resource part of the League, but instead of storing the files on the SL server we could simply link to the Apolyton upload space. This would allow ppl to easily edit their own work while retaining the url (and so you wouldn't need to bother St Leo for every update of your graphics collection). Updates can be reported on a dedictated forum thread.

quote: I suggest a new web site for SL, with the idea that it's designed as the gateway to the forum, rather than the other way around. Move new scenarios and graphics, as well as tips, reviews and contests onto their own pages. Provide links to the SL forum and other web resources.

I think it would be just as valid to maintain a master thread for links to graphics posts, scenario workshops, and tips and guides discussion.

The problem, as has been rightly identified, is that we want to retain the dynamic access of the forum and have clear structure and useful information and file retrieval. A master thread for each topic (graphics/scenarios/reviews/tips) would allow people to post links to important threads, with perhaps a short description. Master threads would also provide a gateway for newcomers in identifying where to go for particular discussions and you'd prevent duplication and/or repetition of frequently asked questions (hopefully).

My only real concern is with the graphics showcases. Would it be acceptable to encourage the use of linking to new graphics from personal upload space rather than as attachments? This would be easier to maintain an "index" if it only required another link rather than another attachment. The showcase threads could still retain the old form of submission, feedback, improvement, requests, and occasional OT trolling.

	16-04-2005 05:32									#46
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling We are all good at making tech trees in CIV2 - Let's put that design rationale to work and make some ingenius forum website structures!

	16-04-2005 05:34									#47
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I'm happy with either option, milord!

Let's start posting up some structure plans for how to set everything out...

	16-04-2005 05:54									#48
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What about a wiki?

quote: Originally posted by Panda I think it would be just as valid to maintain a master thread for links to graphics posts, scenario workshops, and tips and guides discussion.

But wouldn't that make a website obsolete?

quote: My only real concern is with the graphics showcases. Would it be acceptable to encourage the use of linking to new graphics from personal upload space rather than as attachments? This would be easier to maintain an "index" if it only required another link rather than another attachment. The showcase threads could still retain the old form of submission, feedback, improvement, requests, and occasional OT trolling.

You can also link to forum attachments.

The advantage of that is that people won't be limited by the amount of upload space they have and newer versions don't have to have the same file name.

The drawback of this, probably also when using the upload space, is how can you force people to update an existing attachment, or force them to keep all their uploads and keep using the same filename? Once people start neglecting the rules or the people in charge of maintaining the indexes lose interest the whole system will fall apart.

	16-04-2005 06:30									#49
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Hmm...okay, let me try that

Using img tags:

http://apolyton.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1311535

Using html:



Edit: Ha ha!

So there was one of Merc in the picture thread

Last edited by Panda on 16-04-2005 at 06:48

	16-04-2005 06:32									#50
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Alrightly then, since that seems to work I take back what I said about using the upload space.

	16-04-2005 07:03									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator ...At the moment, St Leo is the only one working on the SL website, AFAIK. He can't possibly do this on his own. That's also why we've been mostly sticking to the forums. It's much easier to maintain. But it can also quickly become a muddled mess.

St Leo was obviously quietly beavering away making our lives better, before he asked the forum be deleted

http://sleague.apolyton.net/db/gene...=1&urltypeid=13

Question: is this better than the GL style thread he also set-up and topped? IMO, no. Put it to a poll?

	16-04-2005 08:13									#52
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Harry Tuttle did find something...

Yes I did. My current scenario work and the Petition with all its glory is now uploaded onto a conglomeration of off-site storage areas. Come hell or high water these files will survive.

I suggest everyone find an off-site storage area for their files. I think Fairline's crash and the recent Armageddon that we've witnessed here is testimony to off-site storage effectiveness.

	16-04-2005 08:18									#53
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IMHO, we should put the contest on hold for a while while we sort this out.

I'd be very interested in helping design a site, with help from Merc and anyone else who's interested. I can put up a rough draft on my existing site, and people can comment and make suggestions as we go. My html is very basic, but I have been involved in helping design a couple of sites at work.

Once we have a basic structure, we can upload the new site to Apolyton where St. Leo and perhaps one or two others can be webmasters. I suggest adding Merc.

If this is agreeable, I think I can have something to look at up on my site by Sunday night. Is this OK?

	16-04-2005 08:50									#54
	Got spare money?

If people are looking to setup websites for themselves and for Civ2, FREEWEBS offers FREE websites and webpage design with about 40MB of storage space and with 500MB of user bandwidth per month:

http://members14.freewebs.com/page....e=aboutFreeWebs

	16-04-2005 09:00									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Leonidas If people are looking to setup websites for themselves and for Civ2, FREEWEBS offers FREE websites and webpage design with about 40MB of storage space and with 500MB of user bandwidth per month : http://members14.freewebs.com/page....e=aboutFreeWebs

well being the devilish little hoarder girl that i am, i've managed to hoard pretty much most of ALL graphics from this site, so even if ther were no backup of the older posts, we wouldn't have to worry about graphics backup,
(note to self, get life,)

	16-04-2005 10:10									#56
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Broken_Erika well being the devilish little hoarder girl that i am, i've managed to hoard pretty much most of ALL graphics from this site, so even if ther were no backup of the older posts, we wouldn't have to worry about graphics backup, (note to self, get life,)

I know the feeling.

I have a whole CD full of Civ2 graphics

Using FREEWEBS to make your own website is pretty easy. They include everything to design and set it up...

Cheers!

	16-04-2005 11:24									#57
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How about a website similar to DeviantArt or Elfwood? How much programming would that require?

	16-04-2005 12:41									#58
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I know absolutely squat about websites and website design, but I do know that the majority of links I had from 5 years ago no longer exist.

If the resources of the SLeague are dispersed onto personal sites, doesn't this leave us open to half of it being lost as member's inevitably drift away from the community and stop maintaining their sites? Surely it's safer to keep stuff either in this forum or in a revamped SL site hosted by Apolyton, which, despite this current catastrophe, has proven staying power on the net?

I disagree with Panda and Harry's suggestions about using the forum as a glorified links page when it comes to resources. If the resources are kept on personal sites, then you can bet your ass they'll disappear in a few years. The Poly personal upload space is a no-no also - I could fill mine 10 times over with memory-hungry bitmaps

	16-04-2005 14:02									#59
	Tired of ads?

While I agree the webs would be good for some things;
Tips, scenario showcases, special cases like the petition...

Let's be realistic, people will not want to hunt far for what
they are looking for, and if they cannot find it quick they
give up - This is an internet psychology fact.

I do advocate sticky topics with master threads, covering
all the different areas.
This way, new users can easily browse and be inspired
to join in our community or make a new mod/scen...

We also could have a links thread to lead onto various specific websites.

But please keep the units and graphic resources in a coherent whole.
The system we had was OK, all we need to do is this:

1)
Keep the threads in a structured system = Master thread & links.

2)
Make guidelines for submission = The guidelines fairline suggested earlier.

3)
Make sure the community backs up everything voluntary,
this way we can rebuild should the forum collapse again.

Just my tuppence...

	16-04-2005 16:06									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator There are just a few problems. Ideally I'd like to see the site redesigned from the ground up, clearly organized and consistent, with no left-overs from past designs. But that's a hell of a lot of work. Even if we're going with the current site there will be much to do. In fact, that's pretty much the problem I'm running into with my own website as well. Things are all over the place. And that's just about organizing existing data. There's also so much new stuff I have to add. At the moment, St Leo is the only one working on the SL website, AFAIK. He can't possibly do this on his own. That's also why we've been mostly sticking to the forums. It's much easier to maintain. But it can also quickly become a muddled mess.

Those observations seems spot on,

The problems you're describing when it comes to organizing information in a group already point towards a Wiki documentation like structure. In a way this already happened in the old forum with the top graphic threads. A forum isn't really meant for organizing information, although you can try.
A Wiki is different from a forum in that its focus is on organizing&editing content (in principle everyone can edit and add new pages). In a forum the focus is on debate and discussions. You can also do debates in a Wiki but that's not really where a Wiki is intended for.



My suggestion would be two-fold: the SL would, in time become a Wiki and the Scenario forum would still have its function that it has know : Top threads for showing off graphics (albeit a bit more organized to prevent clutter and spamming) and the usual debates about scenarios, questions, events etc...If a subject is really important you could easiliy copy&paste the content from that thread to a new or existing wiki page at SL. It would save St.Leo a lot of time in keeping SL up to date himself.


So, news&discussions&debate = forum and documentation = Wiki


Wiki pages can work quite well once you get used to them. The Freeciv site is actually a Wiki.

http://www.freeciv.org/index.php/Events