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Rasbelin
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Tampere (Tammerfors), Finland
Nov 1999
time: 07:33
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I have been these past months very passive on Apolyton and only now and then stop by to check for posts of interest. However haven't really done anything noteworthy. This hasn't really been that much due to real life matters, but more like the project I and several others have been working on.  Now however has the time come to reveal to you, dear fellow Apolytoners, what has been going on behind the scenes.
The afforementioned team of three Civ playing geeks is proud to present you a new Internet Relay Chat (IRC) network dedicated to Civilization and the fans of it.
This new service, CivIRC, is the first IRC network ever to focus on Civilization gaming and is going to rectify the previous lack of a dedicated chat service for this target audience, by helping Civ players to get the most out of IRC. It is a new, independent network available to all - not just Civilization enthusiasts, but also other similar usergroups.
What is IRC and what are the benefits?
Internet Relay Chat (IRC) is an Internet system for real-time chat, which has proven its usefulness in several venues, including gaming communities. Civilization players could have several uses for a dedicated IRC service, especially with the Democracy gaming or various Civ development projects, where large teams of players need to discuss matters quickly and efficiently. Another example would be multiplaying: real-time discussion allows for a quick exchange of information on rules, dates and lets players arrange their games with as little hassle as possible. Then there are special occasions where an audience can ask questions from and talk with an honoured guest.
What makes IRC superior to email or forums is its speed, and it is based on channels, "rooms", where several people can discuss with each other simultaniously. This makes IRC particularly useful for groups of people.
Our team has nearly two years of experience from running an IRC service, and we have been members of various Civ communities for up to six years. This has given us an understanding of the needs of Civilization players. Therefore, by concentrating primarily on Civilization, we will be able to help out our users directly: this has proven useful especially in arranging tailored services, e.g. for the Intersite Democracy Game.
The CivIRC team invites all Civ fans to join us on the 23rd of April (ie. next Saturday), at 20:00/8:00 PM UTC [local time conversion], when the service will officially open. More information on the CivIRC network, the opening ceremony, and how to take part in it, can be found at our new official website, http://www.civirc.com/.
I hope that we on CivIRC can define what really is great chat between Civilization, and what not*, devotees.
Welcome to the opening party next Saturday! 
A news item about CivIRC is expected to pop up here on ACS any hour now, depending on how fast Dan is.
* = The Civ community isn't just Civ, but also SMAC, FreeCiv, CtP, etc.
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Rasbelin
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Tampere (Tammerfors), Finland
Nov 1999
time: 07:33
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Your point is okay, but actually no. ACS has not been providing a dedicated IRC service, not to mention a whole IRC network to the Civ community since 2002. ACS does indeed have an IRC server running on this box, but it's not a dedicated service or an IRC network. CivIRC still and will be the first Civ related IRC service to held both titles.
Why isn't the IRC service of this site dedicated? Certainly one can agree it's not an IRC network, because it runs on one server only. Now, as for being dedicated or not, the analogy is simple. The IRC server of Apolyton doesn't have anything common with dedicated IRC services, except that it has services running on the server, and you can quite freely create channels. But it lacks visibility (only a chat link on the pages and user listing for one channel), doesn't have a dedicated IRC staff, doesn't use any IRC naming or access convention (no irc subdomain, only one port, etc), it's poorly run (where's the staff exactly? haven't seen or heard of such being present), nothing has been further developed, etc. As known, it's just basically a replacement for the old PHP chat system, as that one caused too much load issues.
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Rasbelin
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Tampere (Tammerfors), Finland
Nov 1999
time: 07:33
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Gramphos,
actually two of you. Locutus also spotted.
Plato,
glad you asked, because certainly a worthy question why IRC chat is in many cases better or more suitable than instant messaging, or how they differ. I'll briefly try to make my case. Also emphasizing the Civ aspects.
Instant messaging services, such as AIM, ICQ, MSN and Y!M, are designed for sending messages from client to client, just like one would send SMS with a mobile phone. IM services use centralised servers, which mean that the users of eg. ICQ all connect through the same centralised server. IRC however is intended for group chats (also client to client chats can be done, just as in IM, which I will soon get to), in which users don't have to connect through the same server necessarily, but it could be any other server on the network. The world relay in Internet Relay Chat (IRC) refers to relaying the messages to all servers, which means I can be on Boadicea, but the other users can be on Xerxes. However all users must be connected to the same network. They're just not dependant on one centralised server. On IRC messages are exchanged on channels (like "rooms" in traditional web chats), meaning all those present get the messages.
Some IM services, such as AIM, does indeed have group chat features, but they're limited, awkward and often unstable. Users usually have to use the standard client of the IM provider for those features to work properly. I strongly advise against the use of AIM and MSN for group chats, as they're very unreliable in comparison to IRC, which has been around since 1988 and is robust.
Instant messaging works best for contacting people you know and have their contact information for (eg. ICQ UIQ or AIM handle), while finding general chat company or others interested of the same topic (lets say Civ II MP) isn't that easy, as you need to find the people first somewhere. I would compare IM and IRC like this: when you use IM, it's like looking in your phone book and calling your mother, while IRC is like going out to the bar/pub for a drink/pint with the lads. Also you may meet new people in the bar/pub, being a social gathering/venue.
Of course it's not that simple, as there's user directories such as ICQ White Pages or MSN Member Directory, where you can look for interesting people, but finding a group (and eventually individual users too) is easier on IRC, once you find a network to connect to. When you're on a network, just fire up the channel list or join a lobby/chit chat channel to ask for directions ("anyone happen to know where to find Civ II MP company?"). Or you might already know what channel to join. If you would use IM, you would be only talking to one user at a time, but on IRC you talk to all on the channel. Of course you could just address just one or several persons, but just like being in the bar/pub, also the ones being next to you hear that. But those who are in the room don't hear you.
IRC can also be used for file transfers and direct client-to-client private chats (just like IM). These don't differ from IM, except you're limited to the users of the same network, just like with IM services. You can't connect to AIM users with Y!M, etc.
IRC makes it easy to organise group events, meetings and chats. Or to be present, despite actually being away from your PC. Of course possible with IM services too, but you can mark your self available for eg. Civ II MP by simply join the channel #civ2mp, so when others join, they can assume you're a Civ II MP player and drop you a line, asking if you want to have a multiplayer session in 2 hours time.
Now for Civ enthusiasts IRC offers these interesting opportunities:
- Lobby styled multiplayer matchmaking. You join the channel #civ2mp (just an example) and ask if there's anyone who wants to join for a deity level 4 player game in 30 minutes. This is possible of course on the forums and with eg. ICQ, but IRC makes it faster and more convinient. You don't have to contact all your Civ II MP buddies, but instead you can ask all at once and everyone can communicate as agroup. Also works as a good replacement for the in-game chat system, which is buggy and lacks features, plus makes you independent from the game for chat, so when it crashes, it's easy to resume the chat or tell the others your host crashed.
- Group venues. Apolyton has hosted several hosted chat venues on IRC with special guests from Firaxis and Big Huges Games. It makes it easy to gather a group of people to one place and have one or two persons talking. In these cases an IRC channel works like an auditorium. We on CivIRC also intend to get something similar done in the nearby future, depending on how we find honour guests.
- Group meetings. Game development teams, Civ modification makers, multiplayer clans/teams and what not can meet for arranged meetings, in which they can discuss the recent devlopments and in a meeting style discuss issues and vote about them. The Stella Polaris and ColToo projects have done this succesfully on IRC, and possibly too the FreeCiv folks. It makes it convinient to gather all necessar attendants into a shared group environment.
- Live assistance. Chats can be utilised for easily and quick answer support questions that require an instant answer and which can be answered briefly. This doesn't have to be official support, but could just as well be helping to get ones firewall work for Civ II MP or configure an IRC client. CivIRC Helpdesk's #helpdesk utilises this and ages ago some of us did it on #apolyton of ACS, when people dropped by for Civ III related questions.
Is this all just advertising speech, as you perhaps expect it to be, or is it based on real experiences?
Yes and no. I haven't really made it look too rosy, as de facto IRC is very flexible for chat, as you can either talk to one or several persons, as per your choice, while IM is pretty mcuh limited to one user at a time. All the examples haven't been yet done, but as hopefully we get the group of IRC chatting Civers grow, more different kinds of things can be arranged.
Many of us Apolytonian Finns have experience from using IRC to arrange occasionally 4-7 player multiplayer sessions for Civ II. At times there hasn't even been enough seats in the game (as we know, Civ II is pretty limited on how many civs you can have) for all who wanted to play.  On the channel we have arranged the game (who plays, which civs, etc), shared technical information (IPs, who hosts, what game rules and settings, etc), commented the game events (should have some good VJ or Kassiopeia quote here  ) and in crash situations got things in order to resume the game.
As the number of SMAC playing chatters has been quite small, we haven't had that many SMAC MP sessions. Mainly VJ has been pushing for ones. But yes, occasionally that too, but with 2-3 players. On the opening evening, we even got one MP session arranged, with VJ playing against Buster. But once again, as we haven't really been that active MP oriented chatters, so far not much. But hopefully more to come with all types of MP sessions, once people realise how easy IRC is for Civ MP gaming.
For some historical background, IRC has been ever since the Finn Jarkko Oikarinen developed it back in 1988, a popular medium in times of abnormal circumstances and for communications in general. As an information source, IRC has been used to fast distribute news in an underground fasion already back in 1991. Events which have been reported by people first on IRC include (that means, before any mainstream media has reported it or more details have been available than through media):
- The fall of the Soviet union and Iron Curtain. During the news blackout, news were coming in from the East to West via IRC.
- The Gulf War. Especially Kuwaitis were reporting what was going on.
- Los Angeles earthquake 1994.
- 9/11 (WTC, Pentagon, etc). (For the record, I first read about it on Usenet, not IRC. )
For some external references, here's a quote from Wikipedia:
quote:
Internet Relay Chat (IRC) is a form of instant communication over the Internet. It is mainly designed for group (many-to-many) communication in discussion forums called channels, but also allows one-to-one communication. |
The mIRC website:
quote:
IRC stands for "Internet Relay Chat". It was originally written by Jarkko Oikarinen in 1988. Since starting in Finland, it has been used in over 60 countries around the world. IRC is a multi-user chat system, where people meet on "channels" (rooms, virtual places, usually with a certain topic of conversation) to talk in groups, or privately. There is no restriction to the number of people that can participate in a given discussion, or the number of channels that can be formed on IRC. |
I hope my response addresses your question in a satisfying manner. I'm open to any questions you may have.
Last edited by Rasbelin on 25-04-2005 at 13:19
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Rasbelin
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Tampere (Tammerfors), Finland
Nov 1999
time: 07:33
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Civ site? CivIRC isn't a Civ website, but a Civ thematic IRC network. As for how many clients were connected, at the time when you were there, we had some 20 people around (not exact figure, as haven't looked at the stats yet). Furthermore we do have channels that cover Civ. Our main lobby is used for general Civ chat, but that of course you didn't notice, because you actually most likely only did /list and left, never joined any channel. We've been talking quite a lot about Civ these days. As for channel names, the initial ISDG channel carries a very Civ related name, if we get down to this kind of fooling around with minor details, out of which most are more or less irrelevant.
I think your comment is very poorly backed, Loc.
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Locutus
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ACS CTP1/2 Manager & Civ4 Co-Manager
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Hengelo, The Netherlands
Nov 1999
time: 06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Rasbelin
Civ site? CivIRC isn't a Civ website, but a Civ thematic IRC network. |
Same difference.
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As for how many clients were connected, at the time when you were there, we had some 20 people around |
Mostly Fins though.
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Furthermore we do have channels that cover Civ. |
Let's see. Right now I see main lobby, pubquiz, politics, coltoo, eventis, helpdesk, some weird smily face. Only coltoo is remotely related to Civ, and only very remotely... If you're supposed to be a Civ site (or network  ) where's the Civ3 lobby, Civ4, Civ2, CtP, SMAC, Freeciv, DGs, MP, etc... And currently there are 11 people online, the 8 names or so that I recognize are all Fins. You should rename the site FinIRC
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I think your comment is very poorly backed, Loc. |
Better than your comment that there were several Apolyton Staff Members 
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Rasbelin
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Tampere (Tammerfors), Finland
Nov 1999
time: 07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Locutus
Mostly Fins though.
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Depending on when you're online. At this time of the day its quiet, as many are at work/school in Europe and the Americas have just woke up.
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Let's see. Right now I see main lobby, pubquiz, politics, coltoo, eventis, helpdesk, some weird smily face. Only coltoo is remotely related to Civ, and only very remotely... If you're supposed to be a Civ site (or network) where's the Civ3 lobby, Civ4, Civ2, CtP, SMAC, Freeciv, DGs, MP, etc...
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Your sense of humor is ridiculous. You expect to see a bunch of channels being established right away after launch? You expect that we have a bogus list of channels that don't even exist? You expect us, the network, to create all channels and wait for people to come? Clearly you don't have a clue about IRC culture. The network administration isn't the one to run channels, rather it's the users that do it. And that's what's happening now. The network is just a platform for various chat solutions. Currently not all CivIRC affiliated communities have yet established their presence, but this is to happen with a week or two. Depending on when they want it done, we will see a growth in activity. Also expecting to see other's joining in.
With your analogy we should apparently have a ready-made channel for all aspects of Civ, rather than let the users create what they want. Also you seem to keep each channel very topic restricted, as you so seem to demand a channel for every single Civ related topic. Maybe you should just get back to that place called Apolyton's IRC server. Look around and see how much activity you have there, before you start bashing others. I wouldn't wonder if you act like that due to jealousy or some past grudges with me. If you so blindly just look at stats, you would admit that the service you endorse, is doing pretty bad these days.
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Better than your comment that there were several Apolyton Staff Members |
Again: look at the service you're associated with, before starting making stupid comments. Not going to get down to your level and make very biased analyses of any competing services.
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Locutus
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ACS CTP1/2 Manager & Civ4 Co-Manager
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Hengelo, The Netherlands
Nov 1999
time: 06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Rasbelin
Depending on when you're online. At this time of the day its quiet, as many are at work/school in Europe and the Americas have just woke up. |
1) In the weekend it was the same.
2) So you're saying Fins don't have real lives, while the rest of the world does?
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You expect to see a bunch of channels being established right away after launch? |
Not expecting anything, but that *is* just what I found. Only none of those channels were civ-related...
And virtually all other sites that serve a particular topic start out focussing on that topic and only branch out to broader topics and off-topic and the like later on. You're going the other way around. Even if the users run the site, it's up to the admins to give it a certain direction (that's exactly what you claim was wrong with Apolyton's service). Either way, good luck with that, I hope it works out for you, but don't be surprised if Civ is still at most a marginal topic 6 months from now...
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Maybe you should just get back to that place called Apolyton's IRC server. Look around and see how much activity you have there, before you start bashing others. |
Maybe that should give you an indication on how much people are waiting for a chat service? Even in it's heyday there were only a handful of people on the Apolyton chat server, and even then Civ was only rarely a topic of discussion.
And I'm not bashing anything, I'm just making the factual observation that your site so far has very little to do with Civ and is almost exclusively frequented by Fins...
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I wouldn't wonder if you act like that due to jealousy |
Dream on, baby, dream on
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or some past grudges with me. |
I don't remember ever having a grudge with you. I'll admit I've never liked you terribly much, but AFAICR I've always been polite to you (and vice versa). I've even helped you out with a bit of promotion and stuff for that dmoz directory thingie or whatever it was that you used to be into...
I just don't see this working out the way it's being organised (heck, I'm very sceptical about a dedicated Civ IRC service working at all), and I'm being honest about it...
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Rasbelin
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Tampere (Tammerfors), Finland
Nov 1999
time: 07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Locutus
1) In the weekend it was the same.
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Back then the ratio was ~33% Finns, ~66% others, to be correct. And what then if at a given time a large part of the people present represent a certain nationality?
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2) So you're saying Fins don't have real lives, while the rest of the world does?
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Most of the Finns use screens or bouncers, while the others don't. That's the very simple explanation to that.
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Not expecting anything, but that *is* just what I found. Only none of those channels were civ-related...
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That's not correct. Again: you did not follow the chats, you didn't participate. You just made assumptions on two brief visits, getting all jumpy when I said "several Apolyton staff members were spotted." Sure did spot two (= several) staff members. Furthermore that being a very minor issue.
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And virtually all other sites that serve a particular topic start out focussing on that topic and only branch out to broader topics and off-topic and the like later on.
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We sure do have our topic. It's not like 99,9999% of the messages can be Civ related. If not Civ, then a great deal of strategy gaming. However the major thing that unites us is that we are all Civ playing gamers. If it's not the chat, it's the people. We serve the people, not the cause.
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Either way, good luck with that, I hope it works out for you, but don't be surprised if Civ is still at most a marginal topic 6 months from now...
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Mariginal? Hell, you still haven't paid a great deal of attention to what was actually going on. You make assumptions based on quite vague reasonings. Sorry, can't vouch for your opinion, unless you would have a broader experience of our service.
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Maybe that should give you an indication on how much people are waiting for a chat service? Even in it's heyday there were only a handful of people on the Apolyton chat server, and even then Civ was only rarely a topic of discussion.
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The issue is more like people not being aware of IRC, don't know how to use it, don't know the benefits, etc. Just like people often stick to MSIE because they don't know any alternatives, just like that do they stick to not chatting at all or using eg. ICQ. It's about making people aware of a form of communication not previously very popular among Civers, as Civers have a stereotype not being of the type that hang around that much on IRC.
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Dream on, baby, dream on
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What else could have caused your reaction then? Making two possible assumptions.
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I just don't see this working out the way it's being organised (heck, I'm very sceptical about a dedicated Civ IRC service working at all), and I'm being honest about it... |
Have any previously seen similar or quite similar services been organised better? Certainly not.
I take pride in what I do, as sure hell I feel entitled to that and applaude what our small team has so far achieved. I've spent hours and days out to get this far. Maybe we don't ever grow to be world's largest IRC network, but certainly we will run things as good as we can and make everyone feel comfortable and welcome. I think at times people should have visions and dare to experiment. I do see why you're sceptic and laugh, but I at least want to give it a try. I feel insulted when someone comes and makes very vague claims like you do, after a service has basically just open, when you haven't even been 5 minutes on any channel or chatted with the people. It's just outright laughing that someone in your position, who has never done anything IRC related in the Civ community comes and states something like that with very little grounds.
Sorry, I just try to do my best to somehow develop the greater Civ community. 
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H Tower
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I just don't know if this idea is going to work. there isn't all that much to talk about with Civ right now that can't be done in the numerous forums. but hey, good luck
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19-04-2005 02:06
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