22-04-2005 13:16									#61
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quote: therefore, we will go with my source, until you find an academic one.

YOU can go with your source (talking about axe to grind). I'll trust wikipedia, in which the entry on the French flag has not been changed, indicating little (if any) opposition to the statement. Seeing how self-policing is very vigilant, if it was contested, you'd see changes or a revision fight or something in the discussion. Neither exists.

So until you can get me a historical or academic source for the Embassy's listing, I'll just keep with mine.

	22-04-2005 13:21									#62
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in that case you conceed defeat and i win. that fine with me

	22-04-2005 13:23									#63
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Actually I believe you've conceeded defeat and I win. That's fine with me

	22-04-2005 13:25									#64
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well, you believe wrong

	22-04-2005 13:25									#65
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Nope, I'm definetly right. Thanks for conceeding. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.

	22-04-2005 13:31									#66
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Geez, such a good childish spam is completely wasted on 'Poly. You could do it on Eventis you know

	22-04-2005 13:35									#67
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yeah? you got a nice gift for me? is it similar to gift that newcastle got from Safri in the 68th minute? or did you prefer ashtons last second gift? that one was my favorite, i dont know bout you tho.

	22-04-2005 13:50									#68
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More like the nice gifts Wayne Rooney and Steven Gerrard gave to Switerland during Euro2004 when they drubbed the **** out of the Swiss team 3-0 . Though the second Rooney one, off the keeper's head was my favorite, I don't know about you, though.

	22-04-2005 15:22									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Nacht So the only period the Netherlands had a government with a social democratic alignment was 1973-1977

Yeah, that map (almost) completely excludes the possibility of coalition governments, and apparently the maker has a bias towards Christian democrats...

	22-04-2005 15:27									#70
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Wikipedia is NOT a good source for historic info, I've found dozens of instances where Wikipedia was incorrect, grossly incomplete, blatantly biased, etc. On many, many topics it only presents the point of view of one or two individuals, and AFAIK very few of the people involved in the wikipedia project have any real credentials as historians.

It's a great encyclopedia for some generic info on common topics, but I would never ever ever use it as a source for historic info (certainly not on its own).


Of course, a French embassy isn't exactly a neutral source either....

Last edited by Locutus on 22-04-2005 at 15:42

	22-04-2005 15:39									#71
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This is what a professional vexilllologist has to say about the French flag issue:

quote: In brief we can accept that the colours are basically those of Paris as used on the day of the storming of the Bastille, mixed with the Royal white. It is thought that the Marquis de Lafayette was responsible for inventing the red, white and blue cockade which soon became compulsory for Revolutionaries in 1789. We don't have to believe that the combination arose because the King placed a red-blue cockade in his hat next to a Royal white one, but combinations of Revolutionary and Royal emblems were common at that time. The flag was created in 1790 but with the colours the reverse of what they are today, i.e. with red at the hoist, and revised in 1794 to the modern form. The 1790 flag existed only as part of the jack and ensign of the navy. The flag went out of use with Napoléon I's defeat at Waterloo, but was brought back in 1830 (again by Lafayette) and has remained in use ever since. Although significances have been attached to the colours these are all spurious and invented after the fact. The red and blue of Paris were the livery colours of the coat of arms and natural ones for use by the militia.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/fr.html

Another scholarly source backing it up (with literary references): http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/frflag.htm

	22-04-2005 19:16									#72
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quote: Who else could it have been? China? Ethiopa? Brazil?

The folks with the second largest navy at the time?

How about Canada?

We did way more than the French did in WWII.

	22-04-2005 19:30									#73
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quote: Czech Republic.

By what measure? Membership lists show a majority number are Christians.

	22-04-2005 19:38									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia in that case you conceed defeat and i win. that fine with me

My history prof in college disagrees with you. QED you are wrong.

Also the tri-color started showing up before Liberty, Equality and Fraternity became the official motto of the French state.

	22-04-2005 19:57									#75
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quote: Baltic religion is messed up. Kalingrad oblast (Prussia) is not Catholic, and is historically protestant.

Historically, but the Russians have made sure to destroy most of the churches that were there in Koenigsberg.

As well, they have very few Germans there, most have been forceably removed. The Germans are all Volga Germans, and not ones from Germany.

It is a very good question though, that you stumbled upon. I managed to find a good article from a Protestant who writes about the revival of many of the pentecostals and Lutherans, but also of the Catholics.

Apparently Lithuania is rather fond of 'Lithuania minor'

http://www.georgefox.edu/academics/...yoder03rbw.html

	22-04-2005 20:02									#76
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The Russians also renamed every single town there. No one, even teh evil Teutonic Knights did that when they came - they merely Germanised them and Gumbine Became Gumbinnen, Ragaine --> Ragnit etc.

	22-04-2005 20:03									#77
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quote: I believe Hungary is heavily mixed between Protestant and Catholic too. Probably others.

about 6:1 Catholic : Protestant ratio

	22-04-2005 20:05									#78
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It's a very interesting topic.

What do you think they are going to do with Koenigsberg in the future, saras? Could it be ceded to Poland or to Lithuania?

	22-04-2005 20:10									#79
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Also interesting, is the case of Latvia. A 4:3:2 ratio of Catholics to Lutherans to Orthos.

	22-04-2005 20:13									#80
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I dunno. The rabid nationalists in Russia will scream bloody murder if anyone even hints at that on a serious diplomatic level. Plus no one really wants almost a million poor Russians as new citizens. Plus, despite what some would think, neither we, nor the Poles ever owned that piece of land. Sure, the order was a de facto vassal of the commonwealth at some point in time, but that's hardly enough basis for XXI century land redistribution. It is a tough nut to crack. The Russians will of course continue to use it as their own version of Danzig

	22-04-2005 20:19									#81
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It's sad.

I'd love to see the Germans get it, since that is where the German side of my family comes from. But do they really want it?

Before the industrial Revolution, you never would have dreamed of Germany without Koenigsberg, yet now it seems so insignificant.

There used to be 300K people in Koenigsberg alone before the industrial revolution, and now there are maybe 400K

	22-04-2005 20:21									#82
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The Lithuanians seem to have the strongest claim according to the final arbitrator of all european land claims, Europa Universalis 2.

	22-04-2005 20:22									#83
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The Swiss are now majority Catholic too. More Catholics than all Protestant groups combined.

	22-04-2005 20:31									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker The Lithuanians seem to have the strongest claim according to the final arbitrator of all european land claims, Europa Universalis 2.

	22-04-2005 20:46									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It's a very interesting topic. What do you think they are going to do with Koenigsberg in the future, saras? Could it be ceded to Poland or to Lithuania?

Germany

	22-04-2005 21:13									#86
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http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/87...aliningrad.html

	23-04-2005 04:46									#87
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quote: More like the nice gifts Wayne Rooney and Steven Gerrard gave to Switerland during Euro2004 when they drubbed the **** out of the Swiss team 3-0 . Though the second Rooney one, off the keeper's head was my favorite, I don't know about you, though.

maybe, but we got the last laugh by spitting all over steven gerrard.

	23-04-2005 07:20									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It's sad. I'd love to see the Germans get it, since that is where the German side of my family comes from. But do they really want it? Before the industrial Revolution, you never would have dreamed of Germany without Koenigsberg, yet now it seems so insignificant. There used to be 300K people in Koenigsberg alone before the industrial revolution, and now there are maybe 400K

Königsberg being ruled by the Russians and several important cities in German history ruled by the Poles is a pain for many Germans. But now, after 60 years, there's not really a way to get that land back (and the Germans know that). The last Germans from there are soon to die. And thanks to flight and expulsion, most of them are already living in the FRG.
Why would we want to have millions of Poles or Russians within our borders ? The feelings towards these nations aren't exactly very friendly. Despite that, after the experiences with the reunification, only few would want to pay the bill for the necessary transfers and investments.

However, we would certainly feel heavily insulted, if Königsberg was given to Poland. This would make the German-Polish relations worse than they already are. But then, I doubt that the Poles would have the guts to take Königsberg.

	23-04-2005 07:21									#89
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nice app. when I read the thread title I thought he was on about fyrom. once again.

	23-04-2005 15:28									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia that religion map is really have assesd.

I agree- Eastern Europe has been the refuge of several Protestant sects, especially Unitarians, and Czechoslovakia was where Jan Hus led the Protestant Hussite revolt.


And no Protestant Swiss ? Calvin would turn in hell.