24-04-2005 01:36									#31
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FROM page 1...

What have we learned from Iraq?


The US cannot depend upon France, (who showed no gratitude for the US WW1 and WW2 efforts) Germany and old europe, except for Denmark. This may be because they didn't believe in the WMD arguement, according to Pekka.

The US Army can't be stopped by an army equiped with old soviet stuff, no matter how large. Those expecting 20,000 casualties fighting the Iraqi army were fear mongering for political reasons.

The CIA needs people on the ground to develope credible intel. The major reason for going to war in the first place was bogus, and the resulting backlash hurt the presidency of GWB, though not badly as he was re-elected, and the credibility of the US.

Overseeing of the treatment of POWs is absolutely essential.

The US did not fabricate evidence of WMD. Those that said they would have no clue about what a democracy is or isn't capable of.

The US failed to be ready for the unexpected. The president didn't expect the post war resistance to be as strong and so wasn't ready, a major failing.

The left tends to demonize those with whom it disagrees. -Inspired by Diss's post.

The vast majority of Arabs, like other people in this world, do want to have a democracy and do not want to be ruled by ruthless dictators.-Inspired by Ned's post

*If you're selling a war for reasons that are not very clear, democratic nations will not join in (unless there's a great war booty). Out of being 'nice', no one joins.

*Put forward by a Finn.

What else?

NEW POST>>>

Ted, check out your third post and compare it to your second. This thing has been political the whole way. It must be viewed in that light.

Diss, excellent point. It's been fixed.

Pekka, it was an evil dictatorship that gassed and tortured its minorities and abused and kept down women... The WMD reason was put forward as the reason to go to war, but even without them it wasn't a bad decision imo. Anyway, make it short, what lesson would you like added?

Immortal,

Last edited by Lancer on 24-04-2005 at 01:46

	24-04-2005 01:38									#32
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And the notion that we wouldn't be encountering resistence if France and Germany were there is laughable. Why would anyone think that? All that would mean is that French and German kids would be getting blown up alongside ours. Who can blame them for not wanting that?

	24-04-2005 01:41									#33
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"it was an evil dictatorship that gassed and tortured its minorities and abused and kept down women... The WMD reason was put forward as the reason to go to war, but even without them it wasn't a bad decision imo. Anyway, make it short, what lesson would you like added?"

So? It was all about WMDs in here. And majority didn't believe in it.

The fact is, French leaders and German leaders have responsibility over their country. I wouldn't send my boys in a war for reasons we don't believe to be real or true. Would you?

I do believe, that now that there is a mess ANYWAY, we should go in and help out. But that's a different story.

	24-04-2005 01:42									#34
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OH, the lesson

OK the lesson is, if you're selling a war for reasons that are not very clear, democratic nations will not join in (unless there's a great war booty). Out of being 'nice', no one joins.

	24-04-2005 01:43									#35
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Pekka, IIRC, the majority of the people opposed the Iraq war because they viewed it as American Imperialism at work. Weapons of mass destruction, present or not, was of minor concern. People were against the war even if Saddam had them.

	24-04-2005 01:44									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka OH, the lesson OK the lesson is, if you're selling a war for reasons that are not very clear, democratic nations will not join in (unless there's a great war booty). Out of being 'nice', no one joins.

Not true. See my previous post.

	24-04-2005 01:44									#37
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Boris, nobody in this thread made that assertion that I can tell.

"So? It was all about WMDs in here."-Pekka

So they just ignored all the hitlerish stuff Saddam was doing?

	24-04-2005 01:44									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Ted, Nah, I'm just overwhelmed by the argument where France and Germany sucks, after the fact that the WMDs weren't there, and the reasons for war were bogus. That's a paradox right there! ****, they were right, they didn't join, thus they are bastards.. Uhm? It's realpolitiks in a way. Allies or not. Don't expect anyone to gear up for you, if you're making a hard sell. What France did, for going against, now that's a .. that's something you could debate, I mean, why blocking if you could just say we won't go with it and then sit down and shut up. I'm not defending these actions. ALl I'm saying is, they were right, we were wrong, so why some people are blaming anyone in here!?! Weird. Besides, how cna a country be a friend and bastard every other day, depending what the news say? Go, travel, make friends, learn about places, and make your own judgement. 'France blocks the new cheese companies from selling their products in Paris'.. BASTARDS! No.. the real answer is, who the hell cares. No one is being unfriendly, except people who are going wild about france evil this germany evil that.

I agree

	24-04-2005 01:44									#39
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Ned, good point, might be true. However, the facts are still on their side so there's nothing we can do about it. However, had there been WMDs, the view might be different now. Then again, it's a gamble... I mean, many countries intel thought there might be WMDs, not just the US. But the citizens, majority did not believe WMDs existed in Europe. I should know, since I was in the minority .

	24-04-2005 01:45									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And the notion that we wouldn't be encountering resistence if France and Germany were there is laughable. Why would anyone think that? All that would mean is that French and German kids would be getting blown up alongside ours. Who can blame them for not wanting that?

	24-04-2005 01:46									#41
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Lancer, No I don't think so, just that the reasons for going to war, meaning how it was sold were not good enough. Oppressing women etc etc.. hey, happens everywhere in the world.

	24-04-2005 01:46									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ned People were against the war even if Saddam had them.

Not true

The United States Congress disagrees with you

	24-04-2005 01:49									#43
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"Lancer, No I don't think so, just that the reasons for going to war, meaning how it was sold were not good enough. Oppressing women etc etc.. hey, happens everywhere in the world."

Saddam's Iraq was just like "everywhere in the world"? Pekka, did you see the video of the women in the soccer stadium? I'll never forget it. Can't...

	24-04-2005 01:50									#44
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The genocide going on in Sudan was much worse at the time.

	24-04-2005 01:51									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer "Lancer, No I don't think so, just that the reasons for going to war, meaning how it was sold were not good enough. Oppressing women etc etc.. hey, happens everywhere in the world." Saddam's Iraq was just like "everywhere in the world"? Pekka, did you see the video of the women in the soccer stadium? I'll never forget it. Can't...

A minor geographical adjustment - that happend in Afghanistan.

	24-04-2005 01:52									#46
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"The genocide going on in Sudan was much worse at the time."

True...

	24-04-2005 01:53									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Boris, nobody in this thread made that assertion that I can tell.

Patroklos did, but it's not unusual for him to say idiotic things.

	24-04-2005 01:53									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Saddam's Iraq was just like "everywhere in the world"? Pekka, did you see the video of the women in the soccer stadium? I'll never forget it. Can't...

Um, that wasn't Iraq, that was Afghanistan.

No wonder the administration was able to con the U.S. people to back the war...

	24-04-2005 01:55									#49
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umm, my world view says it was just like in many parts of the world. Nothing spectacular. Wrong? absolutely. Disgusting? Yes. Worth attack.. I don't know. Maybe.

The fact remains, the reasons were nto right, and frenchies and germans called it right. It wasn't sold as 'libearting women and children of Iraq'. That wasn't the deal.

What we are not remembering now, is that it was VERY MUCH PART OF the war on TERRORISM. That was the BIG mistake. People in here didn't see it as part of terrorism, adn you can twist the word to suit your needs, but the fact is, people in here did not view it as such, and it was seen as a big mistake, a dangerous thing that would set the future track of what will happen into the dangerous section, and that part contributes to why mayn voted US to be the biggest threat to the world.

You see, when they show you videos about exectuions etc. that's a sell right there. You shouldn't sell a war to begin with, because it means it's likely for wrong reasons, or not good enough reasons anyway. As for Saddam and the ways, hey, it still was one of the most tolerant places in ME, also regarding womens rights. My point is, it wasn't even the most evil place in the world, definitely NOT part of the war on terrorism, and definitely NO WMDs. I personally supported action regardless. BUT IF I was the president in here, I would NOT have supported the action, having a bigger responsibility.

It comes down to, you do not send your boys (and girls) to war, unless it's necessary. If it's about 'liberating' people, you need to be sure you can do it alone, take the crapstorm, and ready to take casualties and pay for it for couple decades later on as well and be one of the most unpopular leader. That's the price.

	24-04-2005 01:55									#50
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BlackCat, that's right! My brain is getting a tad frayed with the years.

Ok then, the mass graves of Iraqi Kurds tortured to death after their failed attempt at autonomy.

	24-04-2005 01:57									#51
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Anyway Pekka, I added your bit to the list (on this page, pg2) with only a small addendum.

	24-04-2005 02:02									#52
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How about, "the Right tends to demonize anyone with which it disagrees." Seems to be accurate, given the slurs hurled at anyone who was against the war. In fact, the Bush admin. has made it clear that anyone who disagrees with any aspect of their agenda must be considered an un-American traitor.

	24-04-2005 02:03									#53
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There are nominal reasons called "pretexts" and real reasons called "interests" for a nation to take a position on an issue. I think it fairly obvious that French and German opposition to the Iraq was was based on interests as both their own intelligence services had also indicated that Saddam had WsMD.

	24-04-2005 02:04									#54
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You evil! Ok.. my point was that.. maybe it's a cultural thing I don't know. In here, folks are first cynical, when in there they might be supportive. You know, people are in distress, dying, oppressed. Freedom gear kicks in, we need to help these people. In here, it would go 'really? I don't believe it... oh it's true? .. so? .. says who? .. so what do you want ME to do about it? Is it doable? Can we afford it? I don't think we can... '. There will be million questions, with cynical and negative attitude, and selling it makes it worse. It's a whole different ball game in here. Euro countries are extremely hard to be mobilized these days. Hey look at our defense. You think offense would be better somehow? I mean the willingness... it would be there, if we wanted it to be there, but the bottom line is that we don't want it to be there.

When you say we don't want to help you, we say why the hell are you selling this crap. When we say, you are going to mess places up again, you say we are going to help people. There are diffferent views to things, none of them are right or wrong, they just are.

	24-04-2005 02:08									#55
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Pekka, good arguements. You sound like an American, pre WW2 isolationist.

...on a three day meth bender.

	24-04-2005 02:09									#56
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quote: Patroklos did, but it's not unusual for him to say idiotic things.

Boris, you such ****ing dumb ass.

But to be more to the point, since as usual things must be spoon fed to you, not only did Germany and Fance puss out, they also went on a smear campaign for no other reason to keep their illegal oil profits. Without that not only would we have them and their significant reseources, but probobly a dozen other countries.

In other words we would have that percieved international legitimacy instead of just actual, and according to you and your ilk Boris, that apparently cures everything from popular uprisings to cancer to boils.

Things like have a pool of another 100,000 troops to work with and people other than us rebuilding the place tend to improve things a bit no? Or are you a proponent of unilateralism?

Now back to your ravings Boris

	24-04-2005 02:10									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov How about, "the Right tends to demonize anyone with which it disagrees." Seems to be accurate, given the slurs hurled at anyone who was against the war. In fact, the Bush admin. has made it clear that anyone who disagrees with any aspect of their agenda must be considered an un-American traitor.

That's just because you haven't experienced real lefties demonizing people that disagrees with them. According to them, everybody with a political viewpoint to the right of them is a "godwin word".

	24-04-2005 02:11									#58
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I suppose some of you guys would like to see us invade Syria next?

	24-04-2005 02:11									#59
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"not only did Germany and Fance puss out, they also went on a smear campaign for no other reason to keep their illegal oil profits. Without that not only would we have them and their significant reseources, but probobly a dozen other countries."

	24-04-2005 02:13									#60
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quote: In fact, the Bush admin. has made it clear that anyone who disagrees with any aspect of their agenda must be considered an un-American traitor

So who exactly has Bush called an Un-American traitor?

Names and links please.