25-04-2005 00:34									#181
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What self-respecting country still uses conscription

yes, I'm baiting. what of it. It's funny Europeans badmouth us for the use of the death penalty, when they still consider enslavement of young men okay.

	25-04-2005 00:46									#182
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quote: You are incorrect. The RG survived mostly intact from '91. Note that Hussein used it in his suppression of the Shi'ite uprising immediately following the end of the war.

Interesting as they were amoungst the number one targets.

Though I am sure whatever was left from the divisions rendered combat ineffective found its way into the efforts to rebuild the guard.

	25-04-2005 00:47									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Not true at all, but the forces attacked were under UN mandate, so NATO need not be enacted.

There was no UN mandate.

quote: There are a few UN Mandates that Iraq was in violation of, even without WMD. France, Germany and Russia were also in violation.

There was no UN mandate. There is only a UN Mandate when the UN says, "force is authroized and will be under the command of ... "

	25-04-2005 00:52									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Interesting as they were amoungst the number one targets. Though I am sure whatever was left from the divisions rendered combat ineffective found its way into the efforts to rebuild the guard.

They may have been one of the main targets, but since the RG kept itself hidden and dispersed, there was no chance to do a "highway of death" on them. Schwartzkof had hoped to cut them off and destroy them, but they managed to escape the pincer largely intact.

Within weeks, the RG was in Southern Iraq, slaughtering the people we'd incited to revolt, while we stood across the border and watched. That is why we should have said to heck with the UN and our allies, and invaded. We owed those people our help, and we betrayed them. That is probably one of the most disgusting things our government has done in my lifetime.

	25-04-2005 00:55									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident What self-respecting country still uses conscription

Almost all of them. The reason we don't is because of the problems the military had with discipline and mutinies towards the end of the Vietnam War.

	25-04-2005 00:58									#186
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quote: There was no UN mandate.

The sanctions and no fly zones are backed by who???

	25-04-2005 00:59									#187
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quote: We owed those people our help, and we betrayed them. That is probably one of the most disgusting things our government has done in my lifetime.

Also a UN mandate. Gotta love em.

	25-04-2005 01:02									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos The sanctions and no fly zones are backed by who???

Nice how you shift the goals posts.

There was no UN Mandate to invade Iraq.

	25-04-2005 01:05									#189
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quote: I'm pretty sure, we couldn't send 30,000 troops there. But, even if we could, what do you think would happen in Germany? I guarantee you, there'd be riots. And the government wouldn't have the parliamentary support (no party would support such a huge mission, even those that were pro-war) anyway and would likely be overthrown.

I am pretty sure you couldn't either, but not because your military isn't capable, it is a political thing. The Bunswehr has the capacity to do so, which is all I said.

B is the only one talking about actual deployment numbers, I am talking about the available pool of troops to use. Germany already has 8,000 peole deployed around the world at this moment, I bet they will get close to if not surpass 30,000 soldiers having been rotated through said areas in 5-6 years.

America has the capacity to put half a million+ soldiers in Iraq if it deemed it absolutely nessecary. Of course we don't nore is it politcally viable. As it is we are around 300,000 servicemen having been there in the last three years.

	25-04-2005 01:05									#190
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Almost all of them. The reason we don't is because of the problems the military had with discipline and mutinies towards the end of the Vietnam War.

Mutinies? Really?

	25-04-2005 01:07									#191
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quote: There was no UN Mandate to invade Iraq.

Really, what was the verbage for not following the sanctions?

The verbage for interfereing with weapons inspections? And PLEASSSSSSE try and deny that one.

quote: Nice how you shift the goals posts.

You asked Your tangent

	25-04-2005 01:08									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove What have we learned from Iraq? We allowed the President to con us into permitting him to initiate a war for a non-existant reason based upon flimsy evidence and his assurance that more solid evidence existed. We should have demanded more solid evidence that Iraq had WMD.

Conned?

Welcome to the world of Michael Moore!!!!!

	25-04-2005 01:10									#193
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue - Why should Germany or France help you guys invade another country? AFAIK the NATO agreement is to help one another in the case of a direct attack, thus the help against the Taliban. Iraq has not attacked any NATO member directly (or indirectly really discounting one or two small training camps), so that treaty does not force them to join. If there had been a solid UN mandate, based on solid proof and not evidence fabricated and enhanced by the respective press offices, then you mgiht have point. No UN mandate = no legal case to go to war for reasons you used (breaking the sanctions etc). Also keep in mind that the populations were predominantly against action, and last I checked France and Germany were democracies, and the governments are elected to carry out the will of their people not some foreign government of a country that still feels they're owed favours for something that happened 60 years ago. Get over it, I mean if you keep looking at historical ***-for-tat, you owe the French a favour as well for helping in the War of Independence etc etc.

Yes we owe France our liberty.

We could have used French and German help. The lack of a UN resolution was what blocked their support.

I wonder why the UN resolution was blocked? Humm.....

	25-04-2005 01:16									#194
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Mutinies? Really?

Yup, really. Entire units refused to follow orders, an aircraft carrier went on strike, units killed their commanders, deserted, etc. The vast majority of soldiers and units followed orders, but this situation was getting to be worrying. It wasn't an immediate threat, but had the war gone on another five years, it could have been.

People forget that the largest segment of the anti-war movement was not made up of students but of Vietnam Vets. There is a memorable scene in the documentary, Hearts and Minds, where a "We Support Our Troops" march actually attacks and beats a group of Vietnam Vets who were protesting.

	25-04-2005 01:18									#195
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yup, really. Entire units refused to follow orders, an aircraft carrier went on strike, units killed their commanders, deserted, etc. The vast majority of soldiers and units followed orders, but this situation was getting to be worrying. It wasn't an immediate threat, but had the war gone on another five years, it could have been. People forget that the largest segment of the anti-war movement was not made up of students but of Vietnam Vets. There is a memorable scene in the documentary, Hearts and Minds, where a "We Support Our Troops" march actually attacks and beats a group of Vietnam Vets who were protesting.

Largest? I doubt it. The commies and SDS's were the largest.

	25-04-2005 01:19									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Really, what was the verbage for not following the sanctions? The verbage for interfereing with weapons inspections? And PLEASSSSSSE try and deny that one.

IIRC, the words used were "serious consequences." That was for the SC to decide, not for the US to decide. The SC did not authorize an invasion of Iraq.

#2, Iraq was complying with the weapons inspections before the invasion.

	25-04-2005 01:23									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Really, what was the verbage for not following the sanctions? The verbage for interfereing with weapons inspections? And PLEASSSSSSE try and deny that one.

"Serious consequences". The verbage didn't mention whyt they were supposed to be precisely (actually, that verbage was chosen precisely because it was vague enough), and it didn't mention which country should lead the sanctions.

The US have not acted according to 1441, simply because no mission was clearly stated, and no precise country was mandated to go for it. If Iran had unilaterally attacked Iraq "because of 1441", it would have been just as legal as what the US did.

	25-04-2005 01:25									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident What self-respecting country still uses conscription

Germany unfortunately is a ****ing conservative country.

But then, Germany isn't a self-respecting country anyway.

	25-04-2005 01:51									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Interesting as they were amoungst the number one targets. Though I am sure whatever was left from the divisions rendered combat ineffective found its way into the efforts to rebuild the guard.

Tawakalna, Medina and Hammurabi divisions were major targets as they were theater reserve (nominally, more realistically they were there to act as regime enforcers against conscript divisions) in the KTO. That accounts for three of eight IRG divisions. The other five divisions were largely or totally ignored. The IRG was rapidly reorganized and reconstituted from available personnel and equipment after the gulf war.

All heavy equipment in the three IRG divisions in the KTO was pretty much trashed, but except for Tawakalna, which was hammered by McCaffrey's 24ID, IRG personnel losses were not extreme.

BTW, are you still a squid nugget, or did you make O2 yet?

	25-04-2005 01:56									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Largest? I doubt it. The commies and SDS's were the largest.

Neither SDS nor the entire communist movement accounted for more than a few thousand people, Ned. At best a couple dozen thousand. If even as little as 1% of the Vets were opposed to Vietnam, that's still close to 20,000. And it was much, much more than 1% opposition from the Vets.

	25-04-2005 02:00									#201
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quote: BTW, are you still a squid nugget, or did you make O2 yet?

August

	25-04-2005 02:01									#202
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quote: Iraq was complying with the weapons inspections before the invasion.

If you mean 1 out of every ten days as "before," then yes.

	25-04-2005 02:03									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos If you mean 1 out of every ten days as "before," then yes.

Well, considering no WMDs have been found and our governmnet no believes none existed, there is material proof that Iraq complied with the inspections.

Sorry, please try again.

	25-04-2005 02:12									#204
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quote: Iraq was complying with the weapons inspections before the invasion.

laughable.

Alright che, the UN has mandated weapon inspections on my apartment, which I refuse to allow happen for ten years, but after the police break in they found nothing.

Does not change the fact that I illegally denied inspectors into my premesis for ten years.

quote: Sorry, please try again.

And of course your justification for breaking said law is from AFTER the war, awesome.

Concidently I am glad you have admitted that Saddam's own refuseal was his downfall

	25-04-2005 02:12									#205
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Neither SDS nor the entire communist movement accounted for more than a few thousand people, Ned. At best a couple dozen thousand. If even as little as 1% of the Vets were opposed to Vietnam, that's still close to 20,000. And it was much, much more than 1% opposition from the Vets.

If you make distinctions between card carrying members and the relatively unwashed, pot smoking, girl chasers that inhabit communist rallies, I agree.

	25-04-2005 02:17									#206
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What we learned from Iraq?

That I was right on almost all counts. The exception being that oil prices didn't drop as much as I'd expected, but nevertheless...

Vindication
Situation in Iraq
Neo-cons + Hawks
Pacifism
Ted Striker

	25-04-2005 02:20									#207
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Whaleboy, tell me you "knew" all along that it was about the OIL.

	25-04-2005 02:28									#208
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Operation Iraqi Liberation

	25-04-2005 02:48									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos laughable. Alright che, the UN has mandated weapon inspections on my apartment, which I refuse to allow happen for ten years, but after the police break in they found nothing. Does not change the fact that I illegally denied inspectors into my premesis for ten years.

Okay, suppose that the police have a warrent to search your apartment for drugs, and you are required to comply but you don't have to let them see anything that doesn't have to do with drugs. You have a safe with child porn in it. You obviously don't want the cops going in there. You aren't required to open the safe, because it has nothing to do with drugs, but obviously until the police check, they can't rule it out. Thus you have catch-22.

This is sort of the problem that Iraq faced. Iraq complied completely with the inspectors in the 90s, but kept certain information away from the inspectors that had nothing to do with WMDs. Because they made such an effort to conceal it, however, the inspectors were suspicious and demanded to see what the Iraqis were hiding. They had no mandate to see what the Iraqis were hiding (which, according to Scott Ritter, who all you convservatives owe an apology to, were the secert whereabuts of Hussein). Eventually, it turns out, the CIA was using the inspectors to spy on Iraq. The U.S. had no mandate to do this, and Iraq had every right to expell the U.S. spies. A month later, Clinton pulled the rest of the inspectors out in order to bomb Iraq in operation "Distract from My Impeachment."

	25-04-2005 02:50									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Ned If you make distinctions between card carrying members and the relatively unwashed, pot smoking, girl chasers that inhabit communist rallies, I agree.

Not every anti-war vet was in Vietnam Vets Against the War.

BTW, Ned, people in communist organizations are not allowed to either smoke pot or chase girls, and we're strongly encouraged to wash.