08-05-2005 08:47									#31
	Full PM-box? Change here!

But Leo said something smart somewhere. The Libs will likely get in a budget vote before this comes back. That way they can campaign on the defeated budget, and not on being parriahs.

	08-05-2005 11:05									#32
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It should be pointed out that the motion in question is only necessary since the government is shielding itself by not allowing opposition days.

As is their right as a government.

They have until June 18? to allow 6 more opposition days.

	08-05-2005 11:14									#33
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither

I'm really not sure on this one.

There seems to be a lot of interpretation room.

Honestly, I don't know what to think.

My uncertainty is compounded by how close the vote tally will likely be (for or against)

Using procedural tactics to either kill or keep the government on life support is obviously going to be the norm in this situation. I find it hard to get too worked up about the actual tactics employed.

	08-05-2005 12:28									#34
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse As is their right as a government. They have until June 18? to allow 6 more opposition days.

As is the right of the opposition to demonstrate a lack of confidence in the government and send us to the polls given that the government wants to play fast and loose with procedure to begin with.

	08-05-2005 12:34									#35
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Using procedural tactics to either kill or keep the government on life support is obviously going to be the norm in this situation. I find it hard to get too worked up about the actual tactics employed.

It is to get worked up over when a government is wracked by corruption, the country is paying the fiscal price for that, and yet they play games to keep the opposition from opportunities to bring about an election. That is, it is to get worked up to me.

I mean, if they really don't want to play by the rule book, why don't they torch the Commons and blame a prolife fundy? Then some sort of enabling act and no need for any more annoying elections. /rant

	08-05-2005 13:28									#36
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: It should be pointed out that the motion in question is only necessary since the government is shielding itself by not allowing opposition days.

Yep. Definition of fascism right there. We are no longer a democracy, if we cannot force a non-confidence motion on the government.

	08-05-2005 13:42									#37
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Yep. Definition of fascism right there.

quote: We are no longer a democracy, if we cannot force a non-confidence motion on the government.

a) Uh...then the Americans don't have a democracy?



b) The opposition will have a chance to pass a non-confidence motion.

At least 6 times between now and June 18th

It seems to me like everybody's playing fast and loose with the rules here. I don't really care either way.

	08-05-2005 13:43									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It is to get worked up over when a government is wracked by corruption, the country is paying the fiscal price for that, and yet they play games to keep the opposition from opportunities to bring about an election. That is, it is to get worked up to me. I mean, if they really don't want to play by the rule book, why don't they torch the Commons and blame a prolife fundy? Then some sort of enabling act and no need for any more annoying elections. /rant

Yeah, that's exactly the same thing.

	08-05-2005 23:13									#39
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse b) The opposition will have a chance to pass a non-confidence motion. At least 6 times between now and June 18th It seems to me like everybody's playing fast and loose with the rules here. I don't really care either way.

What makes you think those 6 days will ever happen? What does prorogue mean?

Also, it's strange that you feel following a precedent set in the 20's is playing fast and lose with the rules, when it is ignoring that precedent (Valeri's way) that would be the problem.

	09-05-2005 01:35									#40
	Put an end to popups!

quote: a) Uh...then the Americans don't have a democracy?

They don't have a minority governing over a majority, without a mandate from the people.

quote: At least 6 times between now and June 18th

I think the opposition should get to determine which days are opposition days, not the government. It's pointless to call them 'opposition' days when the government decides when they get them.

	09-05-2005 01:37									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: why don't they torch the Commons and blame a prolife fundy?

That would be the step to come.

We've had 13 years of liberal rule, that's enough for me!

	09-05-2005 02:25									#42
	Support Apolyton

Thanks BK. The separatists are just waiting for Harper to become PM.

	10-05-2005 06:01									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

As long as the people in Ontario are quick to forgive and forget anything the Liberals do, and just as quick to examine under a microscope anything the opposition hasn't even done, but might do if elected, we are in for a long period of bad government.

At least in the BC election we have an opportunity to get rid of the first past the post electorial system.

	10-05-2005 16:02									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Too true....and polls seem to indicate Ontario is already well down the road of "forgive and forget". My question is, if Canadians aren't going to hold the Liberals responsible for their actions over this, just what do the Liberals have to do to lose power?

	10-05-2005 16:36									#45
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by embalmer42 Too true....and polls seem to indicate Ontario is already well down the road of "forgive and forget". My question is, if Canadians aren't going to hold the Liberals responsible for their actions over this, just what do the Liberals have to do to lose power?

Face an opposition party that isn't a joke?

	10-05-2005 19:56									#46
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Bosh Face an opposition party that isn't a joke?

	10-05-2005 20:24									#47
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Right. The Commons passes a motion that asks the government to resign, but that's not a loss of confidence. Strange world that, and certainly not the one King lived in.

Welcome to the modern day Liberal party. King would be ashamed.

quote: It should be pointed out that the motion in question is only necessary since the government is shielding itself by not allowing opposition days.

Reminds me of the guy who avoids his girlfriend b/c he knows she wants to break up. "Na Na, I can't hear you!" Pretty sad in an individual, even worse in a government.

quote: At any rate, Martin hanging on in the event would be even better for Harper and the Conservatives. The controversy would be enormous, I should think, and might have a very large impact in the next election.

Nope, won't matter. Canadian voters are dense and they won't understand the issue.

quote: I want a change of government, and I don't care if it would be an NDP-Bloc coalition that gave the Liberals the boot, so Mr. Martin should go for it. I hope he shreds the last vestiges of the illusion that he gives a damn about 'the democratic defecit'.

Martin and Liberals care about power, pure and simple. He will sell his grandmother tomorrow if it will buy him power for a week. Spend like a fiend and Canadians will love you. The policy is working already.

Boris -

quote: Thanks BK. The separatists are just waiting for Harper to become PM.

Yeah, the Liberals approach has worked like a charm.

embalmer42 -

quote: Too true....and polls seem to indicate Ontario is already well down the road of "forgive and forget". My question is, if Canadians aren't going to hold the Liberals responsible for their actions over this, just what do the Liberals have to do to lose power?

"forgive and forget"? Hell, we love them. Haven't you heard? Harper is scary.

Bosh -

quote: Face an opposition party that isn't a joke?

Yet, the Federal Liberals remain an option? You have one dark sense of humour.

	10-05-2005 20:44									#48
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Thanks BK. The separatists are just waiting for Harper to become PM.

When the Conservatives were weak, the Separatists were the official opposition. I see no correlation between a strong Conservative party, and separatists in Quebec.

	10-05-2005 22:02									#49
	Increase Your PM Length

C'mon Wezil, I think you're being a bit unfair. After all, Canadians were cranky with the Liberals....for about two weeks. What more do you want?

	10-05-2005 22:14									#50
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Wezil Nope, won't matter. Canadian voters are dense and they won't understand the issue.

Keep whining about how stupid the average voter is. See how far it'll get you.



I've seen you make the same comment a dozen times now. If a lot of Canadian voters feel like there's no viable alternative to the Liberals then that's due to a failure of political leadership, not the fact that they're a bunch of slavering morons.

	10-05-2005 22:20									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: We are no longer a democracy, if we cannot force a non-confidence motion on the government. a) Uh...then the Americans don't have a democracy?

Yes they have a democracy BUT
they obviously don't have a parliament like Canada. heck in the US you can have the House and Senate controlled by different parties OR a president facing two chambers controlled by his opposition. They have evolved their own systems and traditions for dealing with this.

In Canada, with generally stricter voting along party lines, a PM needs to control the majority of the House or they really can't govern. How do you advance an agenda when more than half the house is committed to oppose you at every turn?

	10-05-2005 22:22									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree that the opportunity to have votes of no-confidence is important. Just pointing out that the fact that the Liberals might be able to delay one for a month does not destroy the fabric of Canadian democracy.

	10-05-2005 22:25									#53
	Remove this text

And if the opposition can truly gather enough votes to fell the government then the Liberals aren't going to be able to pass any laws anyway.

	10-05-2005 22:26									#54
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So it comes down to procedural tactics to either delay an election for at least a month to let things settle down, or to call one immediately and strike while the iron is hot.

Like I said, I can't get too worked up about either side's methods here.

	10-05-2005 23:24									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What makes you think those 6 days will ever happen?

Because postponing those 6 days would be obviously illegal? (As opposed to hearsay illegal stuff from ten years ago.)

The Governor General will dismiss the government if Martin crosses over from opportunistic to cheating.

	10-05-2005 23:46									#56
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by embalmer42 C'mon Wezil, I think you're being a bit unfair. After all, Canadians were cranky with the Liberals....for about two weeks. What more do you want?

We sure taught them a lesson.


KH -

quote: Keep whining about how stupid the average voter is. See how far it'll get you.

I don't expect it to get me anywhere. I am resigned to the fact I live in a nation of morons (particularly my home province of Ontario).

quote: I've seen you make the same comment a dozen times now.

And I will continue to make it. Our collective stupidity is stunning.

quote: If a lot of Canadian voters feel like there's no viable alternative to the Liberals then that's due to a failure of political leadership, not the fact that they're a bunch of slavering morons.

You're right. Smart people elect parties THEY KNOW have stolen their money.

"no viable alternative" - WTF? How is the Liberal party a viable alternative? If they don't like the others then I would suspect "None of the above" would be the runaway poll winner. Nope, we still prefer thieves. Tell me again the public isn't dense.

	11-05-2005 00:54									#58
	Put an end to popups!

Yep, that is the Canadian way.

	11-05-2005 02:23									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse

What an insightful rebutal to Wezil's arguements!

	11-05-2005 03:20									#60
	Support Apolyton

Watching the vote as it interrupted BBC news.

It's a disgrace that the lovely Ms Stronach should have to sit next to that ugly old bigot, Stockwell Day. I bet she gets laughed at in the ladies lavs.