11-05-2005 20:45									#121
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Most Canadians don't particularly want the hassle of an election because of something that happened ten years ago and which hasn't yet been proved. Current polls point to the Tories being punished if they force an election.

When do the public ever WANT an election? Meaningless poll question and result.

quote: What should really happen is that everyone should wait until the enquiry is finished. The Liberals have proposed that, and it seems like common sense.

Beautiful spin. This was exactly what the opposition parties were saying a year ago when Martin and the Liberals shut down the commons committee and called an election. Be truthful, Liberals are determined NOT to be judged on Gomery and sponsorship.

quote: I hope there is an election and Harper loses to be replaced by Belinda Stronach - she has a nice bottom.

Is this a requirement in a federal party leader? Any current leaders pass muster in this regard?

	11-05-2005 20:53									#122
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hmmm, apparently there will be a vote on the budget next Thursday, so it looks like the fate of the government will be decided then. Any of you guys know what chance the opposition has on prevailing again on a no-confidence vote?

I also saw another poll mentioned that had the Liberals up by 9 points, beating the conservatives 37-28

	11-05-2005 21:06									#123
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Hmmm, apparently there will be a vote on the budget next Thursday, so it looks like the fate of the government will be decided then. Any of you guys know what chance the opposition has on prevailing again on a no-confidence vote?

This would depend on whether Martin continues informal Cabinet shuffling. We got Layton as Finance Minister now (gaining NDP support). David Kilgour wants troops sent to Dafour as the price of his support. Will Martin appoint him Foreign Affairs minister? Probably, but remains to be seen.

quote: I also saw another poll mentioned that had the Liberals up by 9 points, beating the conservatives 37-28

We had two conflicting polls out this morning. The other poll had Conservatives out front. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, the only poll that matters is election day, and the Liberals to win would be a safe bet.

	11-05-2005 21:33									#124
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Really it depends on whether the three MPs who were absent (two were undergoing cancer treatment, one was at a funeral, IIRC) can show up. If they do, and if Chuck Cadman (one of the three absent) votes with the Liberals, they are safe. Cadman has said he would support the government, but he's also indicated he might not...

I'd say the Conservatives and the Bloc have a better than 50-50 chance of bringing down the government.

	11-05-2005 21:33									#125
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

One of the problems that the Conservatives have is that they are seen as being too pro-US. Maintaining a Canadian identity distinct from that of the Americans has always been a challenge and any party that cannot be clearly identified as being Canadian in its core values, first and foremost, is going to have problems getting support across the country.
That's for the english speaking parts of Canada.
As far as Quebec goes, the Conservatives simply have no base here, no organization, no tradition etc... fortunately for them, the Bloc has almost negated the advantage that the Liberals traditionaly had here. So this election, once again, will be decided in Ontario.
My guess: minority Conservative government.
And the Bloc will play along with anyone who wants to bring it down: if they can manage this a couple more time before the next provincial election - with Charest's Liberal government being one of the most unpopular in Quebec's history- they may help get a PQ government elected.

	11-05-2005 21:34									#126
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Agathon, would you please stop getting Biblical? Please respect the Canadian way of politeness, consideration, and tact. Thank you.

	11-05-2005 21:43									#127
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by St Leo Agathon, would you please stop getting Biblical? Please respect the Canadian way of politeness, consideration, and tact. Thank you.

Yeah! **** Off!

	11-05-2005 21:48									#128
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Richelieu: what's the platform of the PQ?

	11-05-2005 21:53									#129
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Richelieu: what's the platform of the PQ?

Independentists first and foremost. They will hold a referendum on sovereignty anytime they feel they have the "winning conditions".
On the North American political spectrum, they would be on the far left i guess, even though their last government moved a bit to the right in order to tackle the deficit. In Europe, in as much as i understand politics over there, they would probably be dead centre.

	11-05-2005 21:58									#130
	Inflate your Upload Space

Is it ever possible that anyone would ever agree to a coalition with the PQ, or is that considereded completely taboo?

	11-05-2005 22:02									#131
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Richelieu Independentists first and foremost. They will hold a referendum on sovereignty anytime they feel they have the "winning conditions".

Could it happen? I was under the impression that people were more and more supportive of being parts of Canada...

quote: On the North American political spectrum, they would be on the far left i guess, even though their last government moved a bit to the right in order to tackle the deficit. In Europe, in as much as i understand politics over there, they would probably be dead centre.

You mean, there's a sane party in NA? No suprise it comes from a non-anglo part of the continent

	11-05-2005 22:04									#132
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Is it ever possible that anyone would ever agree to a coalition with the PQ, or is that considereded completely taboo?

Shi: PQ is provincial only. The Bloc is their equivalent on the federal scene. And i don't think a government could hold very long if they were in a coalition with the Bloc since Quebec's separation is their ultimate goal. That usually doesn't go too well with the rest of the country.

	11-05-2005 23:36									#133
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Could it happen? I was under the impression that people were more and more supportive of being parts of Canada...

The support for independence has gone down in the last 10 years. The idea and the debate are seen as being old, nowadays. "Passé" as our English speaking friends would say.
Part of it is genuine i think, but some of it is just people repeating what they hear the commentators say on TV. Nationalism was the rebellious thing to do for the baby boomer generation so the new generations naturally move away from it, if only to differenciate themselves.
The underlying movement has been around since the conquest (roughly 1760) however and is in no risk of becoming obsolete. Part of the dynamics of being a minority i guess.

	12-05-2005 00:48									#134
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Much as I hate to say it, the Bloc head is probably the country's most articulate leader right now.

I am seeing a lot of wishful thinking from the Conservative supporters. But you are being overly optimistic. Even if Martin goes out and robs a bank the people from Ontario will still by and large support him for as long as the Bloc is strong.

	12-05-2005 00:52									#135
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by RedFred Even if Martin goes out and robs a bank the people from Ontario will still by and large support him for as long as the Bloc is strong.

I'm curious why you think Liberal support in Ontario is dependent upon what happens in Quebec? I NEVER hear that connection being made...

	12-05-2005 00:56									#136
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by RedFred Much as I hate to say it, the Bloc head is probably the country's most articulate leader right now. I am seeing a lot of wishful thinking from the Conservative supporters. But you are being overly optimistic. Even if Martin goes out and robs a bank the people from Ontario will still by and large support him for as long as the Bloc is strong.

Too bad he looks like Bib Fortuna.

	12-05-2005 02:13									#137
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Even better, from the 1997 campaign:

	12-05-2005 02:58									#138
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Richelieu Independentists first and foremost. They will hold a referendum on sovereignty anytime they feel they have the "winning conditions". On the North American political spectrum, they would be on the far left i guess, even though their last government moved a bit to the right in order to tackle the deficit. In Europe, in as much as i understand politics over there, they would probably be dead centre.

They're weird though.

especially with provincial handouts for big corporations.

They seem very left on some issues, and very authoritarian+right wing economics on others.

	12-05-2005 03:51									#139
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Much as I hate to say it, the Bloc head is probably the country's most articulate leader right now.

Harper may be many things, but inarticulate?

	12-05-2005 06:13									#140
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Not inarticulate. But not as good at getting his message across. Mind you, Harper hasn't been on the national stage for long.

The Bloc's strength isn't the sole reason for the Liberal domination of Ontario by any means. But national politics is increasingly dominated by regionalism in the two most heavily populated provinces.

	12-05-2005 10:23									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well, I guess Harper is getting some of what he wished for. Martin has been forced to name dates for budget votes.

Seven or eight days delay is a little long though. Martin is doing some damage by not countering with a confidence motion.

It should be an interesting several days. Hopefully the Canbuck will be over $0.75 when the dust settles.

	12-05-2005 10:49									#142
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Harper I find rather thoughful. The complaint about presentation prolly has more to do with his delivery than the thoughts behind them.

	12-05-2005 10:58									#143
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Harper has come across as petulant ever since his response to Martin's informercial. Before then I'd say he had the clearest, calmest, most sympathetic message. He'd do well to reign it back in and wait seven measly days.

	12-05-2005 10:59									#144
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I could do without the spectacle of the cancer sufferers berating the government, and being berated in return.

I'd like to say a pox on all their houses, but then I have to wonder why that budget vote wasn't held today.

	12-05-2005 11:00									#145
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by joncha Harper has come across as petulant ever since his response to Martin's informercial. Before then I'd say he had the clearest, calmest, most sympathetic message. He'd do well to reign it back in and wait seven measly days.

Why wait seven days of any sort?

What is Martin stalling for?

	12-05-2005 11:00									#146
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The Liberals have to get their own cancer patients back to the House...

	12-05-2005 11:02									#147
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Why wait seven days of any sort? What is Martin stalling for?

I'm not saying Martin is justified in doing it, just that the Conservatives aren't going to accomplish anything with the procedural games. Martin already looks bad, the manuevering only serves to give Harper the same optics.

	12-05-2005 11:04									#148
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by joncha The Liberals have to get their own cancer patients back to the House...

I see. The country is put on hold, and the currency tanked, so that we can wait for Cadman to get to Ottawa.

BTW, he's not a Liberal.

	12-05-2005 11:06									#149
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Seven days, NYE. Frantically complaining about it just looks dumb.

And one of the Liberals is also receiving medical treatment, the other was at a funeral.

	12-05-2005 11:06									#150
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by joncha I'm not saying Martin is justified in doing it, just that the Conservatives aren't going to accomplish anything with the procedural games. Martin already looks bad, the manuevering only serves to give Harper the same optics.

I don't think Harper is concerned with the perception of himself among the far left. I think he is concerned with how much poo he can make stick on Martin in the eyes of the centre over the whole mess.